Hopestream: Parenting Kids Through Addiction & Mental Health

Gas Station Garbage, Hidden Substances, and Helping Teens Find Healthy Connection, with Sebastian Martin

• Brenda Zane • Season 7 • Episode 307

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ABOUT THE EPISODE:

If you’ve ever felt uncertain about what your teen or young adult might be using—and how easily accessible today’s substances have become—this episode is a must-listen. I sat down with Sebastian Martin, Executive Director at New Life House, a long-standing sober living program for young men, to unpack the alarming rise of so-called “gas station garbage”—substances like Kratom, kava, 7-0H, and “Feel Free” tonics that are marketed as harmless but can create dependency and serious mental health fallout. 

With his deep professional experience and 15 years in recovery himself, Sebastian offers an inside look at what’s showing up in schools, treatment centers, and homes—and what parents need to know right now.

You’ll hear a candid, compassionate conversation where we explore how experimentation today can escalate much faster than it did even a decade ago, why isolation in a bedroom can be as concerning as chaotic, risky behavior, and how crucial community and connection are in early recovery—for both parents and their kids. We also discuss the life-changing potential of treatments like TMS (Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation) and what true collaboration between mental health and substance use professionals looks like when it’s done right.

What You’ll Learn:

  • What “gas station garbage” really is and why it’s showing up in homes, schools, and even jails (but not on standard drug screens)
  • Why today’s cannabis and other “legal” substances are nothing like what you may have experimented with as a teen
  • How to recognize when isolation can be just as dangerous as acting out
  • The essential role of healthy community for teens and young adults—and how parents can encourage it
  • A powerful mindset shift for parents: how to love your child to life, not to death.

This conversation offers clarity and calm in a world of misinformation, helping you understand what’s happening beneath your child’s behavior—and reminding you that not all hope is lost.

EPISODE RESOURCES:

This podcast is part of a nonprofit called Hopestream Community
Get our free, 4-video course, Hope Starts Here, and access to our Limited Membership here
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Watch the podcast on YouTube here
Download a free e-book, Worried Sick: A Compassionate Guide For Parents When Your Teen or Young Adult Child Misuses Drugs and Alcohol

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Sebastian: Sometimes you need to let yourself be carried a little bit. Continue to educate yourself, continue to to absorb as much as you can. Let other people carry you. Again, can't carry the burden, but we can carry each other through these rough times and these hard times. As a parent, make decisions that will help you live with the length and amount of regret possible. If that means picking up the phone and talking to another parent and being vulnerable and talking about things that you're experiencing within your respective home, it's a great step in the right direction.

[00:00:32] Brenda: Welcome to Hopestream, the podcast for parents of teens and young adults struggling with substance use and mental health. I'm Brenda Zane. I've walked this path with my own child's addiction and high risk lifestyle. Each week, we help you gain clarity, learn new skills, and most importantly, find real hope in what might feel helpless. You are not helpless and you're not alone anymore. Find more resources at hopestreamcommunity.org.[00:01:00] 

[00:01:05] Brenda: Hi, friend. Thanks for coming and hanging out with me today. It is truly admirable that you show up here. Take notes, ask questions. Invest your time in learning all the things that are involved in doing your work. I hope too that you are investing in your own self, doing at least one thing that you love, something that brings you joy, something that is just for you. That is not a selfish thing. It's actually something that will keep you afloat on the rollercoaster ride and bonus points. It will also benefit your entire family. And taking care of yourself includes breathing. Imagine that, and breathing is one thing that no matter how upside down life feels at the moment, it is always in your control.

[00:01:58] Brenda: So [00:02:00] pause, whatever you're doing right now. Take at least two deep breaths.

[00:02:08] Brenda: The kind that make your stomach expand, the kind that get oxygen way deep down into your lungs, it always feels so good. I am very happy to be able to bring you today's conversation with Sebastian Martin. He is the Executive Director of operations at New Lifehouse in Southern California. Which is a structured, sober living program for young men, 18 to 25 ish, 25 plus, and it's part of your behavioral health, which also encompasses Neuro Wellness Spa, which focuses on TMS, transcranial Magnetic Stimulation, and Clear Behavioral Health.

[00:02:54] Brenda: The best way to learn about New Life House and the other organizations is on New [00:03:00] Life's website, which is new lifehouse.com. Sebastian has worked in the behavioral health field for over 10 years and has been in personal recovery for 15 years. Yay. He's currently completing his master's degree in clinical psychology and has plans to become a licensed marriage and family therapist.

[00:03:21] Brenda: I've known Sebastian for several years and we ran into each other at a conference a few weeks ago, and when he told me about some work he's currently focusing on around. Quote unquote gas station garbage. So we kind of reference it as substances like Kratom, Kava and 7-0H, which is a concentrated byproduct of the Kratom plant.

[00:03:43] Brenda: I knew that we had to record an episode for you, so we dove into those things and we also had a great discussion around several of the challenges parents face, including. The young person who is isolated in their room versus out and [00:04:00] about being crazy and getting arrested. We also talked about the critical importance of young people finding a healthy community to hang out with in early recovery, and how very challenging we know that is, and a bunch of other great things.

[00:04:15] Brenda: So please do whatever you do with me in your ears and enjoy this very, very important and enlightening conversation. With Sebastian Martin of New Life House, enjoy.

[00:00:00] Brenda: There. So glad to have you here. It's good to be here. Even in a tie today. 

[00:00:04] Sebastian: I am in a tie. Yes. I am at a conference in Las Vegas right now, meeting with lawyers all over the country that are here gathered to talk about mental health diversion and some of that kind of stuff. So it's a pleasure to be here.

[00:00:18] Brenda: Okay. Well, whenever I see you at a conference, the conferences. For the industry are very casual, so we're usually in very casual clothes, so I was a little like star. I was like, Ooh, how fancy 

[00:00:30] Sebastian: I can dress up for court. You know what I mean? Yes. I can put on a tie. I, yeah, I've got the skills and I like doing some of the court stuff and going in there and advocating for treatment as an avenue rather than incarceration. Passion of mine and folks that I've worked with are obviously super appreciative of a second or third opportunity. 

[00:00:47] Brenda: Absolutely. I don't know a whole lot about our drug court in Washington. I think it's supposed to be pretty good. At least that's what I was told when my son was a potential candidate for that.

[00:00:58] Brenda: But are you finding [00:01:00] that, is that like a city by city thing or is a state thing, like how do people end up being able to go into diversion versus straight into prison or jail or wherever? 

[00:01:10] Sebastian: It really depends. County to county. Really, to answer your question, Brenda County to county in Los Angeles County and truly all over the state of California, there is legislate that allows for like a mental health diversion.

[00:01:22] Sebastian: That's really what I've been focusing on is mental health diversion. So, okay, if an individual has trauma history, diagnosis that played a factor in criminal charges, they offer diversionary programs where essentially for a year, 18 months. Two years, an individual, if they can remain within a treatment structure, if they can be medication compliant, if they have access to therapy, what they'll do is they'll essentially postpone, you know, the criminal proceedings and basically say, hey, if you can complete this amount of time and show to the court that you are making [00:02:00] sufficient changes in the eyes of the court with respect to your mental health, then they will essentially make it so that you will never be found guilty of whatever those set charges are.

[00:02:08] Sebastian: So obviously with mental health being what it is, there is a huge need for this kind of advocation and really supporting folks that find themselves in hot water. And so, yeah, definitely a passion of mine. 

[00:02:20] Brenda: Awesome. That's so, it's so great to hear because you know, as you and I know, 99.9% of the people struggling, it is a mental health issue.

[00:02:29] Brenda: So to just like make jail the first stop on the line, I think only makes it worse. Right? Like there's not a lot of healing, at least that I hear from people who've been incarcerated like not a ton of healing going on there. 

[00:02:45] Sebastian: No. In fact, the issues get that much more intense more often than not. I think a lot of people consider jail as like, hey potentially a safe avenue where it is that no harm will be done and there's no access to substances and that couldn't [00:03:00] be further from the truth. Mm-hmm. There's plenty of access to substances within, in incarcerated dynamics, and yeah, more often than not, there's certainly a good amount of trauma that can transpire from spending any amount of time incarcerated.

[00:03:14] Sebastian: That's for sure. Yes. 

[00:03:15] Brenda: Well, thank you for being there and spending a day with lawyers that doesn't sound terribly fun, but I'm sure you're getting a lot of work done. 

[00:03:23] Sebastian: Yeah, they, they, they made it in Vegas, which I think is like supposed to be enticing. Certainly not for me, but, we're here for fighting the good fight, that's for sure.

[00:03:30] Sebastian: Yeah. 

[00:03:31] Brenda: Yeah, you gotta, you got a bunch of people in recovery in Vegas at a conference like how does that work? 

[00:03:36] Sebastian: Doesn't work all that well. Yeah. So I went to bed relatively early last night. I was like, finished to dinner and I was like, I gotta go to bed. And I just gotta get outta, you know, 

[00:03:43] Brenda: Probably, probably the only people in bed at eight o'clock.

[00:03:47] Brenda: Yeah. In Vegas from the people in recovery I love it. I love it. Well, when we saw each other just a couple weeks ago and we were talking about a great webinar that you just did. And so I decided I would try [00:04:00] to scoop you at the same time and get you on the podcast to talk about some of these.

[00:04:04] Brenda: I think, I don't know if it was you or somebody else that had the term, the gas station garbage that I should add smoke shop garbage. Mm-hmm. Like all the stuff that kids are getting access to and when I say kids, you know, teenagers, but also young adults, that's just so available and especially Kratom you mentioned.

[00:04:24] Brenda: And so I was like, as soon as I hear that my alert goes up. 'cause this is the stuff that parents are dealing with every single day. So I don't know where you wanna start with that maybe kind of give us an overview of what are you guys seeing out there, what are you hearing from parents? Because I think this is such a vital conversation.

[00:04:45] Sebastian: Yeah, I agree. And, and yeah, it was such an honor to, you know, participate in this webinar and, and connect with folks. So, you know, I'm, I'm on the substance use coalition for the Beach Cities Health District. So annually I talk [00:05:00] to somewhere in the realm of like 4,000 to 5,000 students in the beach cities area.

[00:05:05] Sebastian: That's, we go to every single middle school and high school from Palo Verde up to El Segundo. Been partnered with a lot of schools down in the San Diego County as well. And so, yeah, I mean this is a topic of conversation where I feel like, yes, students need to be aware of this stuff, but obviously parents really need to be informed.

[00:05:24] Sebastian: And so our webinar that we talked, I mean, last night it was all about hidden and highs and the new age of substance use and what we're seeing young people start to struggle with and from colleagues of mine that work at other treatment facilities, right? This Kratom stuff is just more prominent than ever.

[00:05:42] Sebastian: The marketing tactics that are being used to get the stuff off the shelves and in the hands of young people, it's really scary. This stuff is not detectable on a traditional 12 panel drug test and so for that reason, like and connecting with other colleagues in the space, they're seeing it young people[00:06:00] 

[00:06:00] Sebastian: bring the stuff into treatment facilities tend to use it, tend to get by with it, and, and it's really scary, you know, Kratom, for those that aren't familiar with it, this is a herbal supplement that's oftentimes marketed as like a health supplement. It'll help you relax, it'll help you stay calm in stressful situations.

[00:06:19] Sebastian: The big one that a lot of people are talking about is like a tonic essentially, that's called Feel Free, and it's got Kava and Kratom extract in it. You know, it's, it's an opiate derivative and it brings on a lot of the psychoactive effects of, of, similar to an opiate high and the effects of it are, are very, very scary.

[00:06:40] Sebastian: I mean, we see young people ending up in full blown withdrawal as a result of taking this stuff. Similar to what you would experience from taking opiates for a significant amount of time from stuff that's being sold at gas stations. To your point, Brenda, from stuff that's available at local smoke shops and head shops here in [00:07:00] California and there hasn't been as much public outcry as I would hope for to, to get the FDA involved with this kind of thing, to provide some, some safety nets for our young people, young people, and adults alike

[00:07:12] Sebastian: this stuff is really, really problematic and rampantly available and you know, in the Beach Cities area where it is that that new, the New Life homes are. Yeah, I've seen young people at the high schools that we've spoken at. I mean, I've heard that they can order it off Instacart and have it delivered to their home, sometimes available via Uber Eats.

[00:07:32] Sebastian: Yeah. So very, very scary. Certainly not, the accessibility of this stuff. I mean, it just makes it so jarring like what, what we're up against here as a community, truly. So 

[00:07:43] Brenda: That is super scary. And you said the product feel free, is that like a pill, a powder, a drink, a edible, like it's a drink or all of those?

[00:07:53] Brenda: Yeah, it's drink. Drink a drink. It's a 

[00:07:54] Sebastian: tonic, essentially. Comes in a very small blue bottle. You know, and, and, and we're now starting to see, [00:08:00] I think New York Times put out an article on this stuff and we're starting to get a little bit more information about the harmful effects of this kind of thing. But it comes in into tonic form.

[00:08:08] Sebastian: I see big advertisements for it outside of liquor stores and in the beach cities area, smoke shops, things like that. Because in unfortunate part about Kratom and, and these substances is like within a couple uses there you can develop a physical dependency on this stuff, which keeps consumers, you know, that are uneducated, coming back and purchasing more and more, becoming reliant upon it, similar to what it is again, like you would experience with like a true opiate withdrawal.

[00:08:36] Sebastian: And so it's scary. Very scary. 

[00:08:39] Brenda: It is so scary. And you had mentioned that Kratom does not show up on your sort of traditional 12 panel test. What about something like this Feel free drink where it's Kratom and Kava? Is that gonna show up, no? It's not gonna show up. No, it's. And these kids are so dang smart

[00:08:56] Brenda: they know that. 

[00:08:57] Sebastian: They know that, they 

[00:08:58] Brenda: know that. 

[00:08:58] Sebastian: So like, you know, [00:09:00] if you have a young person that's, you know, being drug tested or in an outpatient level of care, if the outpatient isn't aware that this potentially can be a problem. Now I know that certain lab companies and, and, and drug testing companies are now producing like.

[00:09:14] Sebastian: Like a dipstick that can be used. It's a separate panel though, to test for this kind of stuff. And so my hope is that in states where it is that this stuff is prominent, that treatment facilities, parents are informed. I found yesterday Amazon does make a dipstick, not Amazon, but they sell a dipstick.

[00:09:31] Sebastian: That's right, right. I can test for this kind of stuff. 

[00:09:35] Brenda: Wow. One thing I have a question for you, because one thing that I've really noticed in research, but also in talking to people is that it seems like young people have gotten the message around fentanyl and one pill can kill and you know, like it seems like a lot of them are more aware of that, which is awesome.

[00:09:55] Brenda: And we have seen, you know, a downward trend in overdoses from fentanyl in [00:10:00] particular. However, that does not mean that they're going. Oh, I guess I'm just not gonna use anything. I think they've gotten more creative. Alcohol seems to be trending upward from what I'm observing in our community, as are hallucinogens.

[00:10:17] Brenda: And these kinds of things. And there's another one 0 7 or something I could seven O, 

[00:10:21] Sebastian: which is also seven O yeah. It's also Kratom extract, 

[00:10:24] Brenda: yeah. Okay. Okay. 

[00:10:27] Sebastian: So yeah, I mean, to your point, I'm so grateful because I feel like communities really got in the fight, especially post COVID. I mean, leading cause of death at one point

[00:10:37] Sebastian: was Fentanyl overdose yeah. As an overdose. You know, I'm just so, so grateful to be a part of some of those conversations, to go to schools, to provide education to parents, to participate with organizations like End Overdose, you know, Narcan distributions, Naloxone distributions. You know, giving folks in the community access to

[00:10:56] Sebastian: life-saving medication that could reverse the effects of, [00:11:00] of an opiate overdose. I mean, there's been a huge outpouring of support and that kind of thing. I'm so grateful that there has been a trend down in that respect. To your point, Brenda, it seems like. You, you solve one problem in this space, and then three more occur and whack-a-mole.

[00:11:16] Sebastian: And with alcohol sales, like I see, you know, there's new marketing tactics that are really, it's so obvious or slated towards young people with alcohol, like buzz balls or beatbox, right, where they're bright packaging. You know, tropical flavors. It's totally marketed towards a younger age demographic, and I think, yeah, we still, we still have a lot of work to do and you know, now with local legislate being quasi-legal with psilocybin mushrooms and things like that, and mushroom chocolate, chocolate being available at these local smoke shops, I'm like, who

[00:11:54] Sebastian: who is this marketed towards? And the answer is obvious. This is marketed towards young people, [00:12:00] experimenting and ease of access, really. And it's just, it's, it's scary. It's so scary because obviously, you know, being, being in the space now professionally for over a decade, getting close to finishing up my master's degree in clinical psychology and, and really gonna be stepping into the role of like a clinician like I've seen with this kind of exploration that's been going on even with high concentrate cannabis.

[00:12:23] Sebastian: Huge, huge mental health, high acuity mental health issues on the rise as a result of just the ease of access of this stuff and experimentation. Yes. It's great to see that young people are cognizant and aware of like, hey, one pill can kill that, you know, the fentanyl test strips are more rampantly available and are being used, which I'm so grateful for.

[00:12:43] Sebastian: But you know, in the same respect. I've seen young people just a hu exploring with cannabis thinking, oh, this is none of that kind of stuff. Right. And never really considering the underbelly of just simply Cannabis or psilocybin [00:13:00] or Kratom and seven Oh and those other things, and really doing that as an avenue

[00:13:04] Sebastian: maybe not to participate in those other substances, but also like. Quickly experiencing the really significant consequences of depression, psychotic symptoms, anxiety on the rise, OCD, symptoms on the rise, hospitalizations on the rise, suicidal ideation, things like that at all. Simply from cannabis and these other substances that are known to be less harmful and it's kind of like pick your poison and it's poison nonetheless

[00:13:33] Brenda: yeah, for sure and it seems to me, I'm curious what you're seeing. It seems like we are seeing a faster ramp from experimentation to some, like you said, the severe mental health problems with the psychosis and all of that

[00:13:51] Brenda: like, it seems like, you know, I have a little Petri dish of a couple hundred parents that I'm listening to every day, and it seems like, [00:14:00] you know, we'll hear wow in the last six months, things have just gone from kind of like, oh, I'm a little worried. Like I see some of this stuff happening too. Holy cow, we need treatment today.

[00:14:13] Brenda: Like they're hearing things that aren't being, you know, aren't there. They're seeing things that aren't there, or just these extreme violent and aggressive moods, you know, going from pretty stable to very aggressive very quickly. So to me, I just see this acceleration. Mm-hmm. Where this isn't happening over the course of a year or two years.

[00:14:34] Brenda: I mean, it may be going on that long, but we're seeing the severity like spike very quickly. Is that what you guys are seeing as well? 

[00:14:41] Sebastian: Yeah, absolutely. And I think like when I spent time talking with parents at these local middle schools and high schools, like we were very outspoken and we'll continue to be about the days and age of experimentation really needing to come to an end.

[00:14:55] Sebastian: Now is that a little optimistic, obviously, but truly, like, I think [00:15:00] parents a lot of time have this mindset of like, oh, it's cannabis. Like how harmful can that stuff be? I smoked a joint. I used to smoke a little bit when I was in college, and the point that I really try and drive home to parents of young people is

[00:15:14] Sebastian: the cannabis that's available in 2025 is a vastly different chemical compound than anything that's existed. When I got soap back in 2010, stuff that was even available then in comparison to where we are now. I mean, again very, very different. There was no vape cartridges for cannabis like there is today.

[00:15:34] Sebastian: The edibles, all of the stuff, and it's just, and it's unregulated. It's completely unregulated. If we were to go purchase alcohol from the local Walgreens or CBS, we're gonna know, because of FDA, we're gonna know alcohol by volume, what it is that we're gonna be consuming, whereas cannabis. It's not that way.

[00:15:52] Sebastian: They may say it's this, but it's not regulated in any way and so the scary part is I think parents have this idea of like, Hey, a little healthy [00:16:00] experimentation can transpire, but the stuff that's being used and is accessible is it really brings on such a different psychoactive effect within each individual person.

[00:16:11] Sebastian: And if there is a history of significant mental health within the family, the likelihood that psychotic symptoms, anger, aggression, those things are gonna emerge in my opinion. It's not a matter of if, it's simply a matter of when, and parents just need to be aware of that side of things. And so, yes, the uptick time for things like hospitalizations or delusions or psychotic symptoms, everything is just so much more intense today.

[00:16:37] Sebastian: Not only the substances, but really social media, everything along those lines, and it just makes it that much more difficult to be, have a proactive approach. Oftentimes, I'm working with families that are in the reactive state of like, oh gosh, have we hit this point where it's too far gone? I just want parents to be proactive in the respect.

[00:16:56] Sebastian: Yeah, we've gotta prevent the fire rather than simply just working [00:17:00] on, on putting the fire out if that makes sense. Yeah. 

[00:17:03] Brenda: Totally makes sense and I am glad that you said that about, you know, can we eliminate experimentation? No. But knowing this, you know, we're not talking about the days of sneak in a coors light and you know, 4% joint behind the football bleachers we were doing maybe in the eighties.

[00:17:24] Brenda: It is a wildly different landscape and any parent who is not aware of that is, is really, really putting their child at risk. If you're saying, well, you know, kids are gonna do this, this is like playing with a loaded gun. No joke. Like not saying that to try and be dramatic or get people riled up or anything, but it really is, and you know, to some degree.

[00:17:51] Brenda: I kind of feel for the kids because I think experimentation with some of these things is a natural part of adolescence [00:18:00] and so when you hear like, wow, I can't do that. I mean, there are some kids who get that message. I'm sure you and I'd love to hear what you hear at schools, but you know, they have to find other ways to sort of

[00:18:12] Brenda: push the boundaries maybe with extreme sports or something that's not going to kill them like, the experimentation of today and I'm always curious, 'cause I know you are talking in schools, are there any messages in particular that you guys have found do get through to young people because. I know that talking about, oh, this could be dangerous for you at some later date because of their pre-frontal cortex.

[00:18:42] Brenda: That just doesn't work. So I am really curious to know if you found anything that works. 

[00:18:47] Sebastian: Yeah. In my opinion, I mean, listen, I at one point was in school assemblies where a guy like me would come talk and it was in one ear, out the other, right? Transparently, I don't know. [00:19:00] If there was anything that could have like landed at that time just because of yes, the lack of development cognitively that it transpired at that time, but also like I just, I had so many opinions about authority figures in any respect, and so whenever it is that we're speaking to middle school and high school students, I feel really fortunate.

[00:19:20] Sebastian: One of the biggest things that helped me to kind of change thought patterns, behaviors was the right community and having the right peer group and so in my experience when we are fortunate, 'cause I bring, you know, members of the New Lifehouse community in these are guys 17, 18, 19. Yeah with time in recovery and they speak to middle school and high school students.

[00:19:42] Sebastian: The hope is that these young people can see themselves in the folks that are coming to kind of present and share about their experiences. Certainly not from the stance of like, don't end up like us. More along the lines of like, Hey, we know what you're up against. We understand the challenges. Lemme tell you about the challenges that I [00:20:00] face and what I thought was normal experimentation, what I thought was normal way of coping with pressure to succeed, keeping up with my grades, spinning the plates, and navigating sport.

[00:20:12] Sebastian: Extracurricular activities, my grades, applying for colleges, all this and the other, and it comes from here. Not as much from here. If that tracks, I find that to be really, really effective, I think young people need to see themselves and really understand that like, hey, there are community avenues that are available that aren't like the ones that I may be participating in now, where it is that.

[00:20:33] Sebastian: Living life substance free is achievable, makes it desirable. And so I feel fortunate to be able to go speak at these schools with a mini army of young people that are so eager to kind of participate and change the narrative a little bit around it. And I think that's really helpful and really effective.

[00:20:49] Sebastian: We get a lot of great questions and a lot of great participation. Certainly not the ways that I would've participated as a high school student, but people come up and ask us questions afterwards and [00:21:00] people come up and like really spend time not just talking with me, but talking to other members or that are participating in like a panel discussion.

[00:21:07] Sebastian: And they ask questions and they ask how to approach a friend that they're concerned about and they ask about, you know anxiety and depression and how to navigate those things. And so I think it's really about showing through a peer led kind of way that there's a better way to live. And I think that's the most effective thing in my opinion.

[00:21:25] Brenda: Yeah. I was curious, like, what kinds of questions are they asking? So if you speak at a school and then you've got a Q and A period, what are the things that young people are asking you guys, or even just making comments about like what's on their minds. 

[00:21:37] Sebastian: It's concern a lot with friends and how to approach friends that they're concerned about.

[00:21:42] Sebastian: Yeah. And how to not be seen as like a traitor, you know, towards their friends. Oh yeah. When there's a concern, how do I hold a friend accountable? And while continuing to be able to like keep the door open, should they need anything in support and there's a lot of nuance in the questions that they're asking.

[00:21:58] Sebastian: We always encourage like, [00:22:00] Hey, you know, first and foremost, especially coming out of like fentanyl and things like that where I tell young people all the time, Hey, make a decision that's gonna help you live with the least amount of regret possible in terms of involving a trusted adult in the conversation

[00:22:14] Sebastian: but also like really encouraging them to like, Hey, even if you are gonna set a boundary with a friend of yours and say, Hey, you know, this behavior that you're participating in is something that I don't really wanna be associated with. Always mentioning to them to leave the door open because I think that connection piece, no one should be

[00:22:30] Sebastian: written off in some respect, but encouraging young people to like really, hey, make sure that they know that your door's open, that you'll always be willing to like have a conversation if they find themselves between a rock and a hard place and that's a lot of the questions is like, how do I approach this?

[00:22:44] Sebastian: How do I be a friend and not snitch on my friend, you know? Yes. As the terminology that they often would use, and I always will like make reference to like, oh, well, do you know where that terminology comes from? It's like in mafia, this, that, and the other. They [00:23:00] usually can track all that kind of stuff and I say, listen

[00:23:02] Sebastian: when there was issues within this close knit community, it wasn't necessarily, Hey, we're gonna go bring it outside that community. It's really, we're gonna resolve those issues within this community. When I say friends need to look out for friends, you need to be that, like that role model to them, you need to model to them.

[00:23:20] Sebastian: Those are a lot of the questions that we get is like, how do I approach a friend? And sometimes it's how do I approach a sibling, how do I approach a parent, how do I approach, you know, this issue that's taking place in my home? And oftentimes it's us referring them back to, Hey, lean on the wellness center that exists on your school campus.

[00:23:36] Sebastian: And which is so great to see that so many schools have brought. Something like a wellness center. There's social workers that are available on campus. Those things were certainly not available to me. When I went through high school and I graduated in 2008, there wasn't that kind of support. Now oftentimes there are those avenues to support and I'm like, listen, you can go in there and your anonymity protected and you can go in and talk about things and get some advice and suggestions about how to [00:24:00] navigate these tough dynamics that are occurring all the time.

[00:24:03] Sebastian: And I think it's working truly. Yeah. 

[00:24:06] Brenda: That's amazing. Yeah, we didn't, we didn't have any of that. I mean, there was a school nurse, but that was it. I'm just thinking about what you said about community and that is so key and what I hear a lot from parents is, you know, my kid can't find anybody in their school who

[00:24:25] Brenda: is healthy, who isn't using, and I know that that's an over exaggeration 'cause obviously not, you know, we know that it's only about with adolescents 12 to 15% who are really struggling with a substance use disorder. Mm-hmm. Obviously there's more that are experimenting, but it seems like, especially if they have struggled and then maybe they went to treatment and now maybe they're back in school or they're even back in college, that it's really hard for them to break into a new friend group.

[00:24:54] Brenda: And so, you know, I mean, AA groups are great if they can find one, or maybe if somebody [00:25:00] doesn't connect with that, like how do they find a community of folks who they can hang out with, where the expectation isn't like, yeah, we're going to go on a hike, but first we're gonna get high. Because that was my son's problem, is even when he got, you know, he got sober and then it was like he would tell me, yeah, yeah.

[00:25:18] Brenda: There's people who go hiking or biking or they do whatever, they go surfing, but they get high first. Right. I was like, oh my gosh, I had no idea.

[00:25:26] Sebastian: It's hard. That's probably the biggest challenge that I think a lot of young people face is finding that healthy and supportive, you know, community group and friend group and things like that, while a lot of local resources exist for that kind of thing, you know, I'm biased.

[00:25:39] Sebastian: My experience was, you know, having gone through New Lifehouse, I was immediately surrounded by guys in my age demographic, and I, you know, because I can't imagine like just going and stepping into like a 12 step meeting without having some allies with me, I mean, for those young people that are doing that kind of thing, I mean, truly my hat's off to them because 

[00:25:58] Brenda: Yeah

[00:25:58] Sebastian: as a social, a [00:26:00] socially anxious person. That was, would've been tremendously difficult for me. I think, yeah, I mean 12 step platforms and different, different groups do exist. Where it is that there is a big community driver in that respect. I got really, really involved in like the young people conferences for members of the 12 step community, which was like huge for me, even as I was trying to find myself

[00:26:22] Sebastian: post New Life House in the world outside of just this group that I had been with for such a substantial amount of time. That was something that I kind of leaned on as a way to like create friends in Southern California. I know there's young people groups all over the country that really provide that kind of support, but I do think that like, yeah, tagging in some folks, whether it be at the local school, if they're that age, or tagging into extracurricular activities through community college avenues at school, like

[00:26:51] Sebastian: clubs, all of the things that a normal, like a guidance counselor would say, like they do exist, but I think it, it must be extremely challenging to [00:27:00] motivate a, for a parent's perspective, to motivate a young person to go out and seek that and push through the discomfort that's associated with like going out and making new friends.

[00:27:08] Sebastian: It's challenging, especially when it is that young people feel connected because of one of these. Yes, this is their avenue for connection. 'cause you can sit and scroll and watch YouTube videos and Twitch stream. Everything is meant nowadays. The technology is meant to make you feel connected even though you're not.

[00:27:25] Sebastian: And so I think young people face an even like a more difficult, it's just a tougher road to walk down these days. In terms of like breaking through that discomfort that's associated with meeting new friends. Do these avenues exist? Absolutely they exist, but it just takes more work. It just takes more work to find that crew of people, right?

[00:27:43] Brenda: It does. It does. And to find them without your trusted buffer. Right? If you, if you are now in early in recovery and so you're not buffering with weed or alcohol or one of these crazy things that they're finding [00:28:00] that makes it, it's just so raw and so difficult to do and I know from the parent standpoint watching, it's so painful.

[00:28:08] Brenda: 'cause you wanna see your kid accepted and you wanna see them have friends and going out and doing things and if they're, you know, there's kind of the two, you probably see this too in your houses. There's the two camps where there's like, my guy was the risk seeking never home and you know, I'm getting calls from the police department, like craziness.

[00:28:29] Brenda: Mm-hmm. And then there's the ones who are in their rooms gaming or on their phone twenty four seven won't leave the house. And both of those are extremely hard. I think where parents might get it lulled a little bit into either delaying treatment or not quite knowing what's going on is when you have the latter, when you've got the kid who's home.

[00:28:55] Brenda: At least they're home. They're in their room. They're not out getting arrested. [00:29:00] Right? They're not out like my guy doing all kinds of shenanigans. So I don't know if you see that as well, but I see that where it's like, well, at least they're home. 

[00:29:11] Sebastian: Hmm. 

[00:29:12] Brenda: And that I think can be very dangerous, especially with some of these substances that you're talking about that don't show up on a drug screen.

[00:29:19] Brenda: So maybe you're thinking as the parent, well they're not testing for this stuff. They're acting kind of weird, but they're home, so we're gonna keep working on that. You know what I mean? Just, it's tricky. It's 

[00:29:32] Sebastian: very tricky. I mean, listen and what's the age old saying? It's easier to shorten a board than it is to stretch a board.

[00:29:39] Sebastian: And I think that totally applies to what it is that you're describing because with some of these extremely risky behaviors, there's outside consequences and for young people, they can even while prefrontal cortex may not be fully developed. You're in handcuffs. You're in handcuffs, you're gonna recognize that and mom and dad can't save you under those circumstances. Yes. You know, within reason, but like, [00:30:00] there's real consequences that you're gonna feel. But for the other side of that spectrum, for the folks that are at home and are socially isolated, it's like, it's really difficult. It's really difficult.

[00:30:11] Sebastian: And you know, I encourage parents to like really. In the same way that I would explain it to a young person. It's like, play the tape out. If nothing changes, then nothing changes. And where are you gonna be two years from now? Where are you gonna be three years from now, four years from now? Like really start to kind of consider that getting these young people out of their homes and experiencing life and pushing through a little bit of that discomfort is vital for treatment. It's vital for healthy living. And so just to be socially isolated with the way that technology is these days, it's, yeah are they safer because they're at home?

[00:30:46] Sebastian: Many can make that argument, but 

[00:30:48] Brenda: yeah, 

[00:30:48] Sebastian: at some point you gotta push through some of that discomfort and so yeah, that's why I make that analogy of like, it's easier to shorten a board than it is to stretch it. Much more difficult to stretch a board. That's the challenge and we see more and more of that.

[00:30:59] Sebastian: I see [00:31:00] more and more, 23, 24, 26, even late 20 year olds who parents were in a very similar situation where they let them stay. They continue to provide support for them, and now we have 28-year-old who has no apparent life skills, that's never held a job that's never pushed through some of that discomfort that's been socially cut off, and it is much more challenging for those folks to, you know, get into treatment,

[00:31:26] Sebastian: launch in a healthy way, start building healthy skills and it's just, it's about timing. It's a timing thing, you know, strike while the iron's hot. Yeah. But it's like, in this day and age, it's you really gotta ask yourself like, what's, what's more harmful? And every family will answer that question differently, that's for sure.

[00:31:42] Sebastian: But I just, I encourage parents to find the strength to push through some of that discomfort themselves and address some of these issues and try and head some of these things off as, as early as possible. Early intervention. Therapy appointments, getting them outta the house if they're appropriate for an outpatient level of care.

[00:31:56] Sebastian: Considering something like that, just structuring their day [00:32:00] a little bit, assisting them in structuring their day a little bit to where it is that like, yeah, some healthy movement has to transpire, has to take place. 

[00:32:07] Brenda: Yeah, we, so you mentioned Lindsey Ray Ackerman, who is kind of our in-house resident mental health expert in the Stream community, which we are so thankful for because, you know, people often know us because of substance use, right?

[00:32:23] Brenda: They come to Hope Stream 'cause they see the substance use and it's a little bit of a Trojan horse because what we then let them know is. Yes. And there's like, that's just the symptom. That's the solution. So Lindsay Ray helps us dig underneath there and understand what some of those mental health conditions are, whether it's a formal diagnosis or just a tendency, you know, whatever.

[00:32:47] Brenda: But we did a whole session on hygiene because like you were saying with you know the kids that are out and about and getting arrested, lots of natural consequences, if you allow them as a parent, with the kid in the room. Like [00:33:00] the natural consequences are more subtle and things like hygiene.

[00:33:04] Brenda: Like, okay, my kid hasn't taken a shower in a month or hasn't brushed his teeth in a week, or some of those things, and I think that the natural consequences start to become more mental health consequences that aren't the ones that, as a parent you can say, well, I'm not gonna bail you out of jail, or I'm not gonna, you know, help you get to your appointment or whatever.

[00:33:26] Brenda: So it just, it is so difficult. So we're just so thankful for all the support from, from your organization. And I had, Dr. Coup was on also on the podcast, episode 2 41 and she talked about TMS. So I wanna learn a little bit more, well, I already know, but I wanna share it with listeners just a little bit more about

[00:33:46] Brenda: New Lifehouse, all the resources that you have. 'cause I think that's one of the things I love about your organization is that it's not just. Okay. We have this program here for young men. There's an abundance of [00:34:00] resources around them, so maybe share a little bit about that so people can understand the whole environment there.

[00:34:06] Sebastian: Yeah, so, well, New life's been around since 1985, and obviously we've changed and transformed a lot. We have definitely been focused on trying to cross every t and dot every I, so I've been working formally for the organization, well, I'm an alumni of the organization. I got sober through New life houses back in 2010.

[00:34:25] Sebastian: I started working there at the end of 2014, early 2015, and we brought on clinical services because to your point, like there's such, yeah the Trojan or like, okay, let's address these substance use issues. Let's get someone sober. Let's help them change their behaviors. Let's like really help to like

[00:34:45] Sebastian: educate family, help family, build some community and then we really started to see like, okay, let's pull some more layers back on this onion and start addressing some of these other things the depression, anxiety, let's address the trauma. So we brought on clinical [00:35:00] services, meaning that all our guys have access to through clear behavioral health, through neural wellness Spa, they have access to

[00:35:06] Sebastian: yes, P-H-P-I-O-P level of care, which is great. They meet with amazing clinicians. All the guys within the New Lifehouse go to a private location for outpatient services. Where it is that we are, the new lifehouse are intrinsically involved. All of the clinicians that work there have some sort of intrinsic tie in to the New Lifehouse process.

[00:35:25] Sebastian: We really want the right hand to know what the left hand is doing, and so we don't miss a beat. There's complete synergy in that respect. Myself, program directors, house managers are in the clinical meetings, you know, making sure that we're explaining family dynamics, things of that kind of nature. So we're really trying to get the clinical side of things wrapped up in that respect.

[00:35:42] Sebastian: But in addition, gen psych appointments, helping to support with medication, should medication be appropriate, and then utilizing TMS, which for those who aren't familiar, it's transcranial magnetic stimulation. They have protocols for depression, anxiety, and so many other things. I have done it. I am a huge advocate of [00:36:00] it.

[00:36:00] Sebastian: It's fantastic. I mean, it's a FDA approved treatment protocol that basically reduces anxiety and depressive symptoms. You don't have to take medication. This is an avenue where it is that you're not taking medication and, and the way that I would describe it is, it's like. Type of therapy. It's kind of like, not occupational therapy, but it's basically like you're working out your brain in a way and stimulating the brain in a way where it is that these areas of the brain may because of anxiety symptoms, 'cause of depressive symptoms.

[00:36:26] Sebastian: It's like physical therapy for the brain. That would be the best way to describe it truly. Where you go in, you spend a little bit of time, these areas of the brain aren't getting the normal activity that they would as a result of symptoms. And so, and really I would do it, you know, once a year before my school year would start, because I just felt like cognitively it really increased like the way anxiety manifests for me is like I would just procrastinate things. That I don't need to procrastinate. Mm-hmm. And after I would complete a TMS protocol, you know, when I was finishing up my undergraduate things that I would traditionally procrastinate [00:37:00] a little bit. I'm like, just gonna get this done right now, you know, and be proactive in that respect.

[00:37:04] Sebastian: And so I'm a huge advocate for it. While my anxiety may be clinically, you know, moderate or mild, I have also seen it where folks who have significant anxiety, significant trauma symptoms be able to live really amazing, healthy, normal lives as a result of those protocols and so all of those services are available to the guys within the New Lifehouse bubble, right?

[00:37:28] Sebastian: They're getting great clinical work and with clinicians that understand the New Lifehouse structure. They're working with psychiatrists that really understand, you know addiction substance use, but also very acute mental health diagnosis and really getting access to TMS should they wanna take part in something along those lines.

[00:37:46] Sebastian: And then it's this collaborative wheelhouse where it is that everybody knows what everyone else is doing and it's just this level of synergy where it is that we see really great results and I think our alumni success is [00:38:00] a testament to that you know, as it stands currently, 83% of the graduates that graduate from New Lifehouse will stay sober up until the time that they have three years of recovery post recovery house.

[00:38:12] Sebastian: Wow. So those are blended averages because year one, year two, post-recovery house, right, those numbers are actually much higher. Year three, I call it the Bermuda Triangle when it comes to substance use. Three to five people kind of get lost in that timeframe. They stop doing the things that, otherwise were working for them for such a long time.

[00:38:29] Sebastian: But I think all of those things like, yes, the structure of New Lifehouse, the amazing clinicians that are partnered with us over at Clear Behavioral Health, Lindsey Ray, Ackerman being one of those clinicians that helps to support that kind of thing and the amazing work that Dr. Coup has done over at Neuro Wellness Spa, all of those things in conjunction of one another.

[00:38:48] Sebastian: It creates this recipe where it is these affordable, it's accessible, and we see amazing result come out, you know, as a result of, of all three of those things. I can't tell you which one makes it the [00:39:00] game changer. I think all those things have to be cohesive with one another to get the results that we're looking for.

[00:39:05] Sebastian: Yeah, 

[00:39:06] Brenda: I, yes, I would agree. And Martha, Dr. Coups episode on TMS goes into a ton of detail, so definitely look that up. It's episode 2 41, and I do think that the connective dots where everybody's talking to each other, everybody knows what is going on, so you're not like shipping guys out over here to get therapy and then over here to do this.

[00:39:29] Brenda: Everybody knows what's going on. Also, it doesn't hurt that you're in beautiful southern California. You have amazing, I mean, I don't think that can hurt the situation, so. Sure. Yeah. That's amazing. And yes, I follow you guys on Instagram and I love seeing you all do such a good job of highlighting graduates. And you know, it'll be like 10 years, 12 years, 15, whatever. Like it's so amazing to see that. And I think it's important for parents to see that, like you said, yes, there may be some bumps in [00:40:00] the road and that is super painful because you think, oh my gosh, like we just did all of this and they were doing well for so long.

[00:40:08] Brenda: And that doesn't mean that. Never gonna write, the ship isn't gonna write itself at some point. So I love seeing those. So keep posting your graduate stories. 'cause it's very helpful whoever's doing your social media is doing a good job. 

[00:40:21] Sebastian: We, we have to inspire some hope in that respect. I think our commitment when it comes to parents is you're right, like abstinence and recovery, we guarantee that, but I, what I try and guarantee to the families that I have the opportunity to work with is like, listen, you're gonna have such a robust community as a parent in this process. Your loved one will have such a robust community that the onus for parents, it won't fall on the parents, right?

[00:40:45] Sebastian: They will have the skills necessary, and you as a parent will have the skills necessary to detach with love. To love these young people to life, not love them to death, and really allow for our community to kind of be there should a slip or a relapse or [00:41:00] something like that occur. I really just tell parents, it's not gonna fall on you any longer.

[00:41:04] Sebastian: He's going to have the skills that he needs, and you as a parent are gonna have the skills you need to detach with love and really set the right precedence. He will be able to pick himself up should he want to, at that juncture, and that that's the commitment that I try and make. Yeah, 

[00:41:18] Brenda: it's so important and it is such a relief.

[00:41:21] Brenda: We love supporting some of your parents and just making sure that they are healthy and regulated so that when they show up for the, you know, New Life parent weekend or your groups and family therapy, that they can actually absorb and use all the information that you're giving and to know that it isn't their job to

[00:41:41] Brenda: you know, manage their son's recovery. It's their son's job and we were lucky to have you as a guest speaker, and you did talk about loving your child to life, not loving them to death. And so if you join us in the stream, you'll get access to that in our video library. That was a phenomenal hour that you joined us [00:42:00] for.

[00:42:00] Brenda: I know I have to let you go and get back to all the lawyers, but if you, if you had a mom or a dad in front of you for just one minute and they're in the thick of this. What would you say to them? 

[00:42:13] Sebastian: Not all hope is loss. Simply, especially if they're starting to participate and look for some help and some community for themselves.

[00:42:19] Sebastian: You're taking steps in the right direction you need to surround, just as I would encourage to a young person that's in the midst of this, as if parents need to do the same, they need to surround themselves with without the others get the support. It truly as. As corny as it might sound, it truly does take a village.

[00:42:35] Sebastian: Support groups may not be able to carry the burden of what it is that parents are going through, but in my experience, support groups, folks like to stream and everything that you're doing here, we can carry each other. In those moments. Yeah. And so that's important is sometimes you need to let yourself be carried a little bit, continue to educate yourself, continue to absorb as much as you can.

[00:42:56] Sebastian: Let other people carry you. Again, can't carry the burden, but we can carry each [00:43:00] other through these rough times and these hard times. And that would be my piece of advice is let yourself be carried as much as possible, while it is that you're absorbing as much information. Similarly, as I mentioned earlier, as a parent, make decisions that will help you live with the least amount of regret possible. And if that means picking up the phone and talking to another parent and being vulnerable and talking about things that you're experiencing within your respective home, that's a great step in the right direction. Yeah. 

[00:43:25] Brenda: Amazing. Well, I have nothing to add to that 'cause that was so beautiful.

[00:43:29] Brenda: So thank you Sebastian so much for joining us. We'll put links in the show notes to all the stuff that we mentioned to New Lifehouse and some resources on Kratom as well. 'cause it is very, very concerning. So Absolutely. We'll get all those in the show notes. Thank you. 

[00:43:44] Sebastian: Thank you, Brenda.


[00:53:24] Brenda: Thank you. Thank you Brenda. Okay my friend. If you want the transcript or the show notes and resources from this episode, just go to our website, hope stream community.org, and click podcast. That'll take you to all things podcast related. We even have a start here playlist that we created, so if you're new here, be sure to check that out.

[00:53:47] Brenda: Also, if you're feeling anxious and confused about how to approach your child's substance use, we have got a free ebook for you. It's called Worried Sick, A Compassionate Guide for Parents of Teens and Young [00:54:00] Adults Misusing Drugs and Alcohol. It'll introduce you to ways that you can build connection and relationship with your child versus distancing and letting them hit rock bottom.

[00:54:11] Brenda: It is a game changer and it's totally free. Just go to Hope Stream community.org/worried to download that. You are amazing my friend. You are such an elite level parent. It is an honor to be here with you and please know you're not doing this alone. You've got this tribe and you will be okay sending all my love and light and I will meet you right back here next week.

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Brenda Zane

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