Fostering Independence With Boundaries and Discomfort, with Nicole Runyon, LMSW

ABOUT THE EPISODE:

Author and therapist, Nicole Runyon, LMSW, witnessed something that reshaped her entire career: loving, intact families were producing children with trauma-like symptoms typically identified in severe abuse survivors. As a therapist watching teen after teen struggle with paralyzing anxiety and digital-age depression, she recognized she was working too far downstream. The revelation was both sobering and hopeful—these weren't organic mental health crises, but environmental challenges that parents could actually address. 

Her decision to leave a thriving therapy practice (complete with a multi-year waitlist) to educate parents directly speaks to a profound truth: we have far more power than we think, especially when we understand that saying "no" is actually an act of love.

The statistics Nicole shares in this episode might make you squirm with recognition: mothers average just 120 minutes daily with their children while logging 4+ hours of screen time. But here's where her message becomes beautifully uncomfortable - through her own "I fell for it" moment rescuing her daughter from a forgetful incident, Nicole illuminates how our discomfort with our children's discomfort actually impedes their growth. 

What You'll Learn in This Episode:

• Why "no" is the ultimate act of love
• How digital rejection can create personality-disorder-like traits in neurotypical teens, especially girls 
• The optimal three-to-nine year old window for connection (but it's never too late)
• “Asked and answered": Your new boundary mantra
• How to move from convenience to connection

EPISODE RESOURCES:

• “Free To Fly: Fostering Independence In The Next Generation” - Nicole’s book
• Parent Coaching with Nicole

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Transcript

Brenda: Nicole, so great to talk with you today and so happy to have you here on the podcast. Thank you for joining me.  

[00:00:06] Nicole: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk to you. 

[00:00:07] Brenda: This is such a cool conversation because I know a bit about you. We've talked a little bit and what I love is that you started working with kids and then you were like, wait a minute.

[00:00:21] Brenda: I think I could have more impact with the parents. So that is what we're gonna, part of what we're gonna dive into today. But tell us just first a little bit about Free to Fly. I think this is so. Great. So I just wanna hear a little bit about your book. 

[00:00:38] Nicole: Yeah. So I, my intention with the book is to help parents know that they have so much more power than they think they do over what happens to our kids, um, our influence over them and our level of understanding of our current culture.

[00:00:56] Nicole: What's going on, particularly around technology and how it's affecting [00:01:00] their development. So I happen to think that with information, with a lot of education, I do a deep dive into child development. Uh, it's good for parents to know what their kids need and when they need it on a multifaceted level, so not just.

[00:01:16] Nicole: From a social emotional perspective or a psychological perspective, but from a physical movement perspective and how the brain develops, and even how we develop a connection to ourselves or a connection to our spirituality. And so I think that with that information, parents can. Connect back to their instincts to read more of what their children need and when they need it.

[00:01:39] Nicole: And then it becomes a little bit easier to have better boundaries and rules around screen time. And I talk even about nutrition and like the access to junk food that I think is just more and more increasing. And yeah, just, you know, a lot of education around how this really does affect mental [00:02:00] health.

[00:02:00] Nicole: And so here I was seeing kids. In a mental health setting for therapy, and I thought, well, this is just so much deeper than just. What talk therapy can offer and so much deeper than just the mind that it really does have their mental health has a lot to do with what they're eating, how they're sleeping at night, and what their exposure is to technology, and particularly not just around the content of what they're seeing online, but what they're not doing in the real world because they're online.

[00:02:31] Nicole: And then how that infiltrates the development. 

[00:02:35] Brenda: Yes. Yeah. Well, I have a million questions about all of that, but the first one I wanna ask is, what were you seeing? Because as you know, as a therapist, you're seeing kids over and over and over, and I'm sure you see patterns emerge. So while you were still working with kids and young people, what was it that you were seeing that made you kind of pause and go, wait a minute.

[00:02:57] Brenda: This it, what I'm imagining you [00:03:00] might have thought is like, I'm seeing them too far downstream, like this is already going on. So what were the things that were coming to the surface that made you start to think, huh, what is going on here? 

[00:03:11] Nicole: Yeah, that's exactly what it was. It was, I was seeing them downstream and in some cases it was almost, I wouldn't, don't wanna say too late, but certainly too late to, um, you know.

[00:03:21] Nicole: Prevent them from having to go through so much pain. And yeah. The two major themes that were occurring were anxiety and, uh, depression and depression, kind of more, uh, from a perspective of personality or character, uh, traits that were dysfunctional. Okay. So what that means is, uh. Sure there was depressed feelings, but the feelings were more related to, um, like at the very core, a feeling of rejection and abandonment, and mainly with girls, adolescent girls, [00:04:00] and because of social media, not because they were being abandoned or rejected by parents or caregivers, these character traits.

[00:04:09] Nicole: Or what we would consider personality disordered traits, um, really are born from extreme abuse and neglect. But I was seeing it from families that were intact, from loving, supportive parents, and what I realized was their relationships are so fractured and transparent and fragile that a friend can just ghost to.

[00:04:34] Nicole: Eliminate you from the group, um, without even a conversation. All of their forms of rejection are very subtle. They could be in an emoji, they could be in a, like, oh, you, you know, they, they got kicked out of the group chat or just plain ignored. And so because of this, the girls would go sort of from friend group to friend group and repeat this pattern and develop this fear of rejection, abandonment.

[00:04:59] Nicole: And so what [00:05:00] happens is from a psychological perspective, they get depressed, but in a way of, um, protecting themselves with emotional manipulation to prevent from those feelings, uh, of rejection, abandonment, that pain. And so the girl groups became very toxic and I would get. You know, one or two, or even like many of the girls in that group, I would get referrals for them.

[00:05:24] Nicole: And then I would start hearing about all the sort of toxicity that was going on in their relationships because of this fear of rejection. And then on the anxiety piece, um, a lot of fear of not being able to like, trust yourself. So. You know, a lot of school anxiety because I have a test that day or there's a presentation and I have to get up in front of people and talk to them.

[00:05:49] Nicole: Um, and just really kinda run of the mill things that you and I were anxious about when we were kids, but we're able to work through and get to the other side of. But because these kids aren't being [00:06:00] taught to cope with their feelings and they're getting dopamine instead of coping like early on, um, they can't resolve that for themselves, so they become paralyzed.

[00:06:11] Brenda: Hmm. Yeah. And I think, is this, what did you see pre and post COVID? Because what I hear a lot of is this just massive increase in anxiety and depression post COVID. 'cause the kids are obviously at home. Parents are desperately trying to work and, you know, hold all the balls in the air and inevitably kids just ended up spending more time in front of screens and, you know, very isolated.

[00:06:39] Brenda: Is that something that, is that sort of a knockoff effect of what you're seeing too? 

[00:06:43] Nicole: Absolutely. I saw the same thing before and after COVID. The only difference is, is it was there were more kids that were experiencing the things that I saw before. Yeah, so, and that's how I knew, oh, it's definitely the tech, you know?

[00:06:59] Nicole: Yeah. [00:07:00] Because when I first started to become aware of this, it was 20 14, 20 15, and frankly, hardly anyone was talking about it. I mean, I think we had, Jean Twenge was the only one. She had, uh, done some research and found a correlation between depression and suicidal outcomes in social media. Um, but because it was only a correlation and not causation.

[00:07:20] Nicole: She was heavily dismissed, of course. Um, of course, despite the fact that clinicians like me were, I saw it almost immediately. I can't even tell you, Brenda, it was like the, almost the day that the kids were allowed to have access to their phones all day during school was the day I saw the mental health decline.

[00:07:37] Nicole: And so I was seeing this long before I think anyone else was, because I was getting these cases. But after COVID, I think you couldn't look away. It was so clear that this was affecting all of them. 

[00:07:50] Brenda: And you mentioned girls in particular with the depression. What about the what? What is going on with boys and young men in social media?

[00:07:59] Brenda: Mm-hmm. [00:08:00] 

[00:08:00] Nicole: Um, I think with social media it's not so much, it affects the girls more because girls are very communal and yeah, really feel those that need to be socially connected, I think with the boys, and it's not to say social media isn't affecting them, I think, um. In general, the, the internet or gaming, um, or just technology usage, um, is causing them to feel less than, and that's because boys are very much needing physical activity, uh, competition and play.

[00:08:36] Nicole: So early on it's play. As they get older, it's more competition and physical activity and they're not getting any of that. Um, and you know, even the boys that play sports, sure they're getting it, but it's organized, you know, and Right. And they're not really like, especially during the school day, able to access that.

[00:08:56] Nicole: Like they need to like all the time. I always say, if you want a boy to [00:09:00] learn something, teach him while he's running in a field, 

[00:09:02] Brenda: and yes. Yes, exactly. Yes. That is so true. My son, my second son ended up going to a. Private school. I don't know if you've heard of the Gian Institute. No. But it's basically a methodology of teaching boys the way boys learn, and their rule of thumb is they can't be in their chair more than 15 minutes at a time.

[00:09:26] Brenda: Mm-hmm. So they are up and you know, throwing footballs to learn languages or whatever anyway. But yes, because I saw that with my oldest. I was like, oh, this is not, they can't sit in a chair for eight hours a day. 

[00:09:40] Nicole: No, they can't. It's insane. They just can't. No, and the problem is I love that. I'm gonna have to look into that, that it's so cool.

[00:09:45] Nicole: Um, but the problem is that. They, because they have to sit for eight hours and they can't, and they're not doing well doing it. Now we're pathologizing them and saying their A, DD or their ODD, which is oppositional defiant disorder, and we're [00:10:00] telling them they're the problem. So what they're doing is internalizing the shame and then not knowing what to do with that.

[00:10:06] Nicole: They don't have an outlet for it. They don't know how to communicate it. Nine times outta 10, they're told not to communicate it because boys don't cry. And so then, right. It's just this compounding of. Bad feelings about themselves that turn into a feeling of not feeling enough or strong enough. And for a boy that's, that's really painful, almost unbearable because boys make you feel strong and capable.

[00:10:32] Brenda: A hundred percent. And what I hear, um, a lot and what I've heard from my son is because he was diagnosed a DHD when he was in third grade, um, he felt like growing up he got this message. And I don't know, like. I don't remember saying it overtly. So I think it was more subliminal is you're broken, there's something wrong with you.

[00:10:55] Brenda: You need to be fixed. Uh, because it was like, let's try this medication. [00:11:00] Let's try that medication. Okay, that one didn't work. Let's try this dose. And so it was this constant, which you can see in third grade, you're like, okay, clearly I'm not okay without something. Like I need something to be. Different, which means I'll be accepted because as soon as we got a, a good medication and dose, all of a sudden the teacher stopped calling and I wasn't getting all of the, you know, I wasn't sitting in his classroom all the time.

[00:11:26] Brenda: So it was like, I just think, man, they're getting this message from such a young age that. Something's wrong with them. That needs to be fixed. And that's a, that's a heavy burden to carry. 

[00:11:37] Nicole: Yes. It's very much so. And then that medication piece of relying on something outside of yourself, something chemical.

[00:11:45] Nicole: Yeah. That is. Is reducing your internal locus of control and your internal motivation. Yeah. Because, you know, how can you expect a young boy, especially, you know, a developing brain that doesn't really understand any of this [00:12:00] to think otherwise, it's sending a really strong message. 

[00:12:03] Brenda: It is. Um, I am, I'm just thinking about you sitting with these kids and then thinking about the parents.

[00:12:11] Brenda: And I always walk this fine line of. Having, helping parents understand you have a role in what's going on. Like you said, it's not causal, right? It's not a an if then it's not a you do this, they do this, but we absolutely have. Uh, an impact and influence on what's going on, and that can be good or that can be not so good.

[00:12:34] Brenda: So when you start seeing a parent, what are some of the more common sort of, I'll call them dysfunctions or, you know, like unhealthy patterns that are going on? That are then impacting the kids that you used to work with. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:12:51] Nicole: Yeah. 

[00:12:52] Brenda: Okay. 

[00:12:52] Nicole: Um, very common today is for parents to not be able to manage their own discomfort for whatever [00:13:00] reason.

[00:13:00] Nicole: Maybe they have childhood pain that was unresolved. Maybe they are using their devices too much and checking out and not really. You know, working through something hard, maybe they're not challenging themselves and feeling like they're growing as, as an individual. Um, also a lot of parents today are overindulging and over.

[00:13:21] Nicole: Um. Doing it with their kids in terms of making them happy. And so there's a myriad of reasons why, uh, parents are struggling with being uncomfortable in themselves. But what that does is it pro, it doesn't provide an opportunity then for the parent to allow their children to be uncomfortable. And these are basic things like.

[00:13:43] Nicole: If your kid forgot their homework and they're at school, and now of course all the kids have access to phones when they're at school. So they call you and they say, mom, I forgot my homework. And now most parents today would bring their homework up to the school, even if they're in the middle of their workday, even if they have [00:14:00] to be inconvenienced, um, they'll do it now.

[00:14:02] Nicole: Some parents will do it and then yell at their kid later and say, you made me leave work. Right, right. And so, so two things are going on. One is we can't. Even bear the thought of our kid having a natural consequence for forgetting their homework, right? Because that's really painful and uncomfortable and oh my gosh, they're grades and at the same time, we don't know how to have that boundary and express and communicate that.

[00:14:29] Nicole: Hey, I get it. This is really upsetting, but I, I can't leave work. It's just not okay for me right now. Yeah. And then later, you don't have to be resentful and not, and yell at your kid because you actually felt like your boundary. You said your boundary, it was respected and sure everyone's gonna be uncomfortable with what happened, but everyone's gonna get to the other side of it.

[00:14:51] Nicole: And right there, you've just made your kid more resilient and you've allowed yourself to have that boundary and that's healthy for you. So, mm-hmm. That's one [00:15:00] example of many of what, uh, parents are coming to me with, but at the very core of it, it's this lack of ability to be uncomfortable. 

[00:15:08] Brenda: And it's so interesting, you know, it's because it doesn't seem like it's.

[00:15:16] Brenda: I don't know. I guess I would think that something that, that causes so many difficulties down the road would be a little more complex. I mean, not that that isn't complex, but it's, it's something where like you just said, okay, everybody's gonna be uncomfortable and then everybody's gonna be okay. Like it's, you get through that moment, right?

[00:15:32] Brenda: You get through that discomfort. Maybe it lasts an hour or a day or a week or whatever, and then we keep going. But we do, we have this like, we're just so allergic to that discomfort. Whether it's our in ourselves or watching our kids struggle is so hard. 

[00:15:51] Nicole: Yeah. And really, you know, there's a lot of lessons that are getting lost on the kids because of it.

[00:15:55] Nicole: So think of that homework example. The lesson would be, well, you don't want to [00:16:00] forget your homework again, because that was really painful. And so chances are the kid isn't gonna forget their homework again, and then the parent doesn't have to keep running the thing up to the school. Because I know parents that it's not just the homework, then it's the soccer cleats, then it's the lunch, then it's, you know, because they forget everything.

[00:16:17] Nicole: 'cause they're not training their brains to remember or having a system of organization to remember. And I think that's because the technology isn't just affecting the kids, it's affecting us too, as adults, as parents. And it's making us comfortable. And it's making our lives convenient. Yeah. So then we just default to, oh, I'll do that for you, because that's just gonna make everything easy.

[00:16:39] Brenda: Yes. And because I can, right? Yeah. Like I'm capable of doing that. And also we just feel like, well, if I don't do it, am I being a terrible parent? Right? Yes. Like I think we get very confused too about, well, is that the right thing to do, or is that the wrong thing to do? And it gets a little confusing because at some level you think, well, I.

[00:16:59] Brenda: Isn't that [00:17:00] what I should do? And then, you know what I mean? It's, it's hard to know where do you stop and at what age do you do that? You know, if your 23-year-old is calling you, Hey, I ran outta gas. Can you come put gas in my car? It's like. Uh, you know, you probably knew how to put gas in your car a few miles back, and, but at the same time it's like, well, I can, I'm available.

[00:17:24] Brenda: I could do it. Yeah. So I think it does get really tricky as a parent to know. When to step in. Yeah, when to step back and how to let your kids know that you're gonna be doing that. Because that's, I think an important element too, is to be able to have a conversation to say, Hey, I know I brought you your homework last week, or I know I filled your tank with gas last week.

[00:17:50] Brenda: Now that I think about it, I probably shouldn't do that going forward or something like how do we have, how do we kind of prepare them for this pulling back that we're gonna try and [00:18:00] do. As we're letting, as we're letting everybody feel discomfort. 

[00:18:04] Nicole: That's right. Yeah. I actually have an example of that. Um, my youngest daughter is 11 and just recently, so it would've been the spring or end of the school year, um, she was running for student government and she needed a poster board to make her election poster board right.

[00:18:22] Nicole: And it was, I don't know, maybe it was Thursday and I. Oh, I know what happened. I'm sorry, I'm gonna back up. So on Monday of that week, we had gone to the office supply store because she had another project that she needed a poster board for. And so before we checked out, I said, do we need anything else?

[00:18:42] Nicole: Are we good for the week? Because you know, having kids like that spring end of year may rush is like every day there's some bananas. Bananas. And I was like, I'm not coming back to the office store this week. Yes. So we check out, she says, no, we're good. Well, what do you know by Thursday? She's like, mom, I need a [00:19:00] poster board for the student government election on Monday.

[00:19:03] Nicole: So, so what do I do as a parent in 2025 when we have Amazon is order the poster board on Amazon because I didn't make time. Of course you do. Of course I do. Right? Well, Amazon said it was gonna arrive Saturday, but it did not arrive Saturday. And so here we are Sunday morning with this dilemma of, I didn't plan to go to the office store.

[00:19:22] Nicole: We had a very busy day. And you know, I like, we can't, we can't get you poster board. I don't know, you know what we're gonna do? So. We ended up having to, feeling like we had to go to the office store and get the poster board. She ended up doing it and then I thought about it, well, I was angry. Right, right.

[00:19:39] Nicole: So I was feeling that sense of, you know, she didn't tell me and I can't believe I did this. I can't believe I, you know, went to the office store to get it. And um, so I thought about it. I took an hour. I needed an hour. Yes, because it was May. That's the pause button. The pause button is magic. Yes, it is. [00:20:00] And I had launched a book in May too.

[00:20:02] Nicole: So not only is it like this whole rush, but my book is launching in May. It was just like the month of Crazy. So I realized that I used the convenience of technology to then have a lesson get lost on her. Because the lesson should have been you have a bike. We have a store that's within biking distance that you can ride your bike to and you know, yeah, it might be a little hard to roll up the poster board, maybe put it under your arm or something while you ride home.

[00:20:32] Nicole: But you also have an older brother who has a car and can drive and so you can arrange maybe with him, maybe he has time to take you. But yeah, moral of the story is you needed to have solved that problem. I stepped in and solved the problem with convenience, and so the lesson got lost on her, and then I ended up getting frustrated.

[00:20:50] Nicole: So I talked to her about that and I explained to her that I made that mistake as a parent, and that next time we're gonna have to learn a lesson from it. [00:21:00] And Yes, so it, you know, it does get us too, this technology. It's not just them. 

[00:21:06] Brenda: It totally does. I can just see this going through your mind. You're probably like, I wrote a book about this.

[00:21:12] Brenda: I, gosh, 

[00:21:13] Nicole: so true. When I took that hour and I realized, and it hit me like a, like a light bulb, I was like, oh, I fell for it. 

[00:21:22] Brenda: Well, it's so true, and, and I. And I talk about this with our folks in our community as well, is I think it's helpful when you're in one of these situations where your child is, I don't wanna use the word demanding something, but sometimes it can feel like demanding.

[00:21:40] Brenda: Yeah. No matter what age they are. 13, 23. Where if you've always stepped in and they're just assuming, of course you're gonna step in. And why is it that we feel so obligated? To do it. You know, and I think what you said [00:22:00] there, you, you said resentment, which I think is a huge piece of this. And if we're always feeling this sense of resentment, like, oh, my time is being impacted, I, you know, I don't have time to drive to the store, or I don't wanna get up and make a, for so many years, I would make.

[00:22:18] Brenda: How many different dinners, right? Like, well, this one wants this and then this one wants this. I mean, sadly, I have to say up until like middle school, like I'm not just talking when they were toddlers, like, I did this, and then you end up being resentful. Mm-hmm. And then that just festers until you get to a point where you kind of explode.

[00:22:38] Brenda: Mm-hmm. Which is not fair to them. Yeah. So I, I see this cycle all the time and, and I'm curious. What your thoughts are on why do we feel this obligation? And I don't know if this is you. You probably have a better read on dads, but I know for moms in particular, we just feel [00:23:00] like, okay, I gotta step in, I gotta do this, I gotta solve it.

[00:23:03] Brenda: I gotta run the errand. I have to make the food, whatever it is. And then. Why are we so afraid of saying no? Mm-hmm. That doesn't work for me. Mm-hmm. Like, what is it about that? 

[00:23:14] Nicole: Yeah, that's the discomfort. And interestingly enough, I see it in dads too because, uh, they don't know what their role is and they're sort of just losing their instinct as well.

[00:23:28] Nicole: Because I think for dads, the instinct would be to say no. I mean, there was a time when the dad was the one that. Not that I'm saying kids should ever be afraid of their parents, but the dad was the one they were afraid of. You know, there was the 1950s mom that would say, just wait until your father comes home.

[00:23:44] Nicole: Right, right. And, and that wasn't good either. But the point I'm making is that instinctually dads. Are gonna be naturally more disciplinarian, are gonna naturally be better at saying no. But they've lost their weight too, just like moms have. Mm. And that [00:24:00] is what I, what I'm saying is like at the very core of all of this is a disconnect from ourselves and essentially a disconnect from our feelings, including the negative ones, including the painful ones, right?

[00:24:12] Nicole: So the no is painful. It's not fun. Right? None of us want to say no, you know? Mm-hmm. Being the yes mom is fun and great, and our kids love us, and I mean, my daughter jokes. I, I love you when you're saying yes.

[00:24:29] Brenda: You're like, don't say that around anybody that's reading my book. 

[00:24:31] Nicole: Yes, exactly. Yeah. I'll fully admit she knew it's a, it's. It's a joke, but Yes. But the idea is, is that, yeah, that's the fun thing to do and that's the happy thing to do. And I think also, you know, moms spend on average 120 minutes a day with their kids and dad's even less at 85 minutes.

[00:24:50] Nicole: Right. Yeah. So we're getting less and less time because our modern lives are not allowing for a family connection. And then when we have that time, we want to [00:25:00] preserve it. We do not wanna have conflict. We do not wanna be in in our painful feelings. We don't wanna say no and have them yell at us and say, I hate you.

[00:25:07] Nicole: You're ruin my life. Yes. Right? But this is what I try to help parents with, is that the no is actually love because the no is teaching them. How to live without us, because that's the ultimate goal. 

[00:25:23] Brenda: Right. Which is so paradoxical. Right. It's, it's like you, like you're just like, you're trying to hold onto them and hold onto them.

[00:25:32] Brenda: That was so powerful when you just said that no is actually love and that I think that's helpful when you're in the moment and you're like, I should say no right now. 

[00:25:44] Nicole: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:44] Brenda: To be able to remember. That is the loving thing to do. Yes. Yeah, because it feels so backwards. That's right. You know 

[00:25:54] Nicole: It does. But what will happen is they will feel more connected to you because your note is out of [00:26:00] their safety.

[00:26:01] Nicole: Right. Right. And they know that like on some level, it's their job to resist it. It's their job to push back and fight because they're growing up and they're saying, you are not in charge of me. I can take care of myself. Right. But they appreciate that because they know that you're doing it for their safety, and then they're gonna be more likely to want to be around you, to want to talk to you.

[00:26:23] Nicole: Yeah. And you won't feel disconnected like you think you will. It's actually quite the opposite. 

[00:26:30] Brenda: Right. You could just experiment with it for a little bit, but a question I have is, do we need to say no and then give a reason? Like do we need to say No, I can't bring your. Schoolwork to the school, or No, I can't come fill your gas tank because, or can we just say, no, I can't?

[00:26:49] Nicole: Um, both. I think it depends on the situation, I think. Sure. Certainly. It's great to explain because you're teaching them that your person, you have [00:27:00] boundaries. Right. And, um, if there's, certainly, if there's a reason, like no, I'm at work and I'm, I am about to enter into an important meeting and. My job pays for our house and our food and I can't not go to this meeting, then that's a good reason.

[00:27:16] Nicole: Right. But sometimes it's no, because you need to learn the lesson. So just like you said, most parents, I mean, most of parents who are working from home especially have the ability to be flexible and go and. Fill the gas tank or take the homework to school. So sometimes there isn't a reason, right? It's, no, I'm sorry.

[00:27:37] Nicole: You need this natural consequence. So you can explain that. You can say you need the natural consequence for sure, but there isn't always gonna be a reason. And then what I would advise is a lot of, like, I always joke that, um, when we give a reason, and I'm a firm believer in giving reasons, I'm not saying don't.

[00:27:54] Nicole: But we've created monsters because then yes, because then we've opened [00:28:00] the door for them to argue and negotiate and say, please, please, please, instead of our parents. That said, no. 

[00:28:08] Brenda: Exactly. Well, that's what that was. Exactly. My next thought and comment was, especially with our kids who are, are misusing substances.

[00:28:16] Brenda: They are brilliant negotiators and they are brilliant at coming up with the reason why. You know, if I say no, I can't, I'm walking into a meeting. Well, when is your meeting? Is it in five minutes? 'cause you're only three minutes away. And then you would have time to get like, they're so crazy good at this.

[00:28:35] Brenda: Yeah, that, that's why I asked because I think sometimes we do open a door when we give a reason. So maybe we need to practice. You know, everybody knows their kid best. Like sometimes yes, I could give a reason, but sometimes I like what you just said is sorry that this is the natural consequence of what's going on here.

[00:28:56] Brenda: That's right. 

[00:28:57] Nicole: That's right. Which is 

[00:28:58] Brenda: so hard to say. [00:29:00] 

[00:29:00] Nicole: It is so hard to say. Yeah. And, and what I find to be helpful in those situations is like, 'cause they're gonna come back to you with but this and, but that even when you say you need the natural consequence. Um, you can say asked and answered. So that's a way for them to know that your boundary is your boundary and you're not going to waiver.

[00:29:23] Nicole: Mm-hmm. But it's also a way to res for you to show them that you respect 'em, that you're not just saying, because I said so. Yeah, but you're, you're basically saying, this is my boundary. I said, no, and you asked and I answered, and it's over. So, right. So you're preventing that negotiating child from getting in the door.

[00:29:43] Nicole: You've closed the door, yeah. And you've shown them that your boundary is to be respected. 

[00:29:48] Brenda: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, it's, it is always tricky. It's like, how much do I explain? Because I just don't want to have the half an hour of negotiation [00:30:00] afterward. Absolutely. 

[00:30:01] Nicole: And my kids always did the thing of, I would always explain, but then they would still say, but why?

[00:30:06] Nicole: And I would say, I already explained it to you. Do you want me to explain it again? 

[00:30:12] Brenda: Would you like me to do it in sign language this time or in Spanish, or like what 

[00:30:17] Nicole: you need to hear? Yes. But why? 

[00:30:22] Brenda: Yes. Oh, well also, when you said that moms spend about 120 minutes a day with your kid. Is that what you said?

[00:30:30] Brenda: Mm-hmm. I just wanna make sure I got that right. Yeah. Okay. Because when I, I try to be extremely good on my phone. Like I have a, a 15 minute timer on Instagram. I can't, you know, it shuts down after 15 minutes and it still says like three point something hours a day that I have screen time. Now, I don't know what all is included in screen time.

[00:30:52] Brenda: Like that could also be my meditation, but in general, it's like three to four hours a day. And I think I'm probably on the light side. Mm-hmm. [00:31:00] So we're spending more time face-to-face with our phone than we are with our kids. Absolutely. Yes. Which is terrifying. 

[00:31:09] Nicole: It is. Yeah. Yeah. When you think about the, just the time and then, and then, then when you are with your kids.

[00:31:19] Nicole: What is going on? Like what are you doing and, right. I think that when we can be aware of that, it's really, it's good, it's eyeopening and you're right. Terrifying, but in a good way to help us to understand that we need to make some changes. 

[00:31:36] Brenda: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think going back to the coping, because I do think that's what this all boils down to, is.

[00:31:45] Brenda: The ability to cope, the ability to be uncomfortable and know that we're gonna survive it. Like I always say, no one has died of an uncomfortable conversation. Like it's just an uncomfortable conversation. You might sweat a little bit, you might, you know, your, I might twitch, I [00:32:00] don't know. But it's, we typically get through them.

[00:32:03] Brenda: Uh. And, and learning how to do that. Get more comfortable with being uncomfortable in a way that we can model that for our kids so that they're seen without being obnoxious about it. Right? Like, we don't wanna be like, look, I'm being so comfortable with this uncomfortable situation, but, but how, how do we if we are recognizing, okay, I, I am that person and I was for so long the, you know.

[00:32:33] Brenda: The, um, conflict avoider, and it was interesting 'cause it was only at home. Like I could do conflict at work no problem. But the minute I got in my car, do, do, do, drove home, opened the garage door, walked in my house, it was like I was a different person. Yeah. Do you see that like it, how, and I don't know. I don't, I've gotten better, but I'm not great at it.

[00:32:57] Brenda: Still like. How do we get more [00:33:00] comfortable with these things that feel so awkward and uncomfortable and, and make us just kind of wanna, I, I think where I went with this, I was thinking about the phone. The phone can be a very comforting place just to stick our head and scroll and not have to deal with stuff.

[00:33:15] Brenda: That's right. 

[00:33:16] Nicole: That's what's happening. So, so the how is very much related to the phone and it really is a matter of spending time with your family without devices because, um, once you can do that, then you're going to experience the gamut of what it is to be in a relationship. And there's going to be funny moments.

[00:33:39] Nicole: There's going to be. Nurturing loving moments. There's going to be angry moments. There's gonna be embarrassing moments, right. And disappointing ones. And we can go on and on and yeah, so that's how we learn how to tolerate discomfort because we've recognized that we've allowed ourselves to have the good stuff too.

[00:33:59] Nicole: [00:34:00] And we're not really allowing ourselves to experience all of that because we're not giving enough time to the connection. 

[00:34:08] Brenda: Yeah, that makes sense. Where it's a stew, like there's the stuff in the stew that you like, and then there's the cauliflower or whatever you don't like, and you just gotta kind of go with that as well.

[00:34:18] Brenda: That's 

[00:34:18] Nicole: right. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and then there's, you know, family dynamic issues, right? So you're, you're describing this experience where you were at work, but that was you, and sure, you had people you worked with and you had to interact with, but that was your thing. And then you go home and you're. In an environment where there's other people and there's other personalities and you're, you're the mom, so you're responsible for how that goes.

[00:34:44] Nicole: And that's a lot of pressure. And so that's what's happening in families is we're, we're losing our ability to like, again, have that connection and have all the feelings. 

[00:34:56] Brenda: Yeah. Yeah. There's this, somehow there's [00:35:00] become this expectation and they, I think this is a little bit generational that. The family's just always gonna be happy.

[00:35:08] Brenda: Mm-hmm. Like, you know, and I don't know if that's Instagram, like we just have to post all of these Happy family pictures or Facebook or whatever it is. But I think somewhere along the line there became this expectation that happy. Doing fun things. Everybody's doing well is the norm. And if you don't meet that, then something's wrong with your family.

[00:35:31] Brenda: And so, like for our families with substance use, when that comes into the picture, that just shatters that whole facade big time. Yep. Like, well that's not happening here. So when, um, I sort of wanna tap into substances a little bit, when. Kids are sort of experiencing this in their family. They're not knowing how to cope with discomfort.

[00:35:57] Brenda: Parents don't know how to cope with discomfort. [00:36:00] What do you see as far as kids and substances along those lines? 

[00:36:05] Nicole: Yeah. Um, I think from a very early age, kids are, to your point there, there's this image of having a happy family. And if kids are crying, say there's a three-year-old having a meltdown. Now what we're seeing is parents give their kid an iPad and instantly they're happy.

[00:36:24] Nicole: Right? There's a video actually that was going around several months ago. Highly disturbing video of this baby had to be. No more than one, maybe even less lower than one, um, with an iPad. And then the mom who's like doing the video is basically sadistic, just, um, showing that like she thinks it's funny.

[00:36:49] Nicole: She takes the iPad from the baby. The baby of course, has a meltdown, but not just a meltdown of like, they were playing with a toy and you took the toy away, like. [00:37:00] Uncontrollable, like, like, um, rock's back, uncontrollable, crying. And then the mom's giggling and she puts the iPad back in the baby's hands and immediately stops.

[00:37:11] Nicole: Oh. And it's, the whole video is just to be like, ha ha, look, he loves the iPad or something. And Oh yeah. And so 

[00:37:23] Brenda: that's like heartbreaking just to hear that. I'm glad I didn't see it. Right. 

[00:37:27] Nicole: Yeah, absolutely heartbreaking. And we all know that. You know, babies are gonna cry if you take something away from them.

[00:37:33] Nicole: But that wasn't what this was. You could visibly see that that baby was very much attached and addicted to that device. Mm. And so we might not be, that might not be the the norm to give a baby an iPad, but it is the norm to give a 3-year-old an iPad. Now it is and, and the headsets to match and we're completely shutting them out of the [00:38:00] world.

[00:38:00] Nicole: And so what that's doing is preventing them from working through that tantrum that all three year olds are going to have that all three year olds need to have to learn how to build their tolerance to frustration. And then, then we put, you know, whatever, a six or 7-year-old on Roblox. And they're getting constant dopamine and preventing them from going out and being independent because that's what they need to be learning.

[00:38:24] Nicole: And then we're putting a middle schooler on social media preventing them from working through their insecurities about their identity development. 'cause that's when it's starting. And then we're putting a teenager on more tech, um, you know, just increasingly more to avoid. Um, having to grow up and deal with natural consequences and life and having expectations from teachers and coaches, and so we're wiring the brain early on to avoid discomfort and preferred dopamine.

[00:38:56] Nicole: Hmm. And just not getting any kind of [00:39:00] tolerance for pain, discomfort, difficult feelings, basically life. 

[00:39:05] Brenda: Right? Mm-hmm. And so then as teenagers often do, yeah. They start experimenting and they realize that, oh, weed also is a big dopamine hit. Yep. Or alcohol is, or whatever. So like you said, we're sort of wiring the brain for that need.

[00:39:23] Brenda: For the dopamine, dopamine, dopamine, which is at such an unnatural level that. By the time they get to teen years, uh, you know, something like a substance is, I mean, it kind of makes sense, right, that they would turn to that because that's where they're getting that kind of a hit of dopamine and it works so well for a while.

[00:39:48] Brenda: Obviously it's the wrong, it's the wrong decision, but it works for them for a while, and so. It kind of like, as we have to look at that and say makes [00:40:00] sense that they would do that. They've been on this path toward that for a long time. 

[00:40:04] Nicole: Absolutely. And it's so available to them with the, with the marijuana vapes, 'cause that really is where they're starting.

[00:40:12] Nicole: Um, gen Z overall is drinking less than any other generation and it really isn't something. To be excited about because, uh, we're they're just transferring it to marijuana. Yeah. And the marijuana, as you will probably well know in the vapes, is highly potent and not like the marijuana from the seventies and eighties and nineties.

[00:40:32] Nicole: And no. Very addictive. Um, yes. And the problem I see happening with this generation is they're getting addicted to marijuana and their parents aren't taking it seriously because their parents think it's not addictive. Yeah, I, I had a young adult who, um, I was counseling and I clearly saw that she was having substance abuse issues, particularly with marijuana.

[00:40:57] Nicole: And I said to her, I said, coming to therapy with [00:41:00] me is not enough. You need more than just that. You need some substance abuse treatment. And, you know, she, her parents were still paying for her treatment and she said, if I tell my parents I need substance abuse treatment for marijuana, they're gonna laugh in my face.

[00:41:13] Nicole: Wow. Mm-hmm. Wow. So this is a real problem for Gen Z because their Gen X parents think nothing of it. 

[00:41:22] Brenda: No, because we are remembering the marijuana of the eighties or the nineties. Well, I don't know the, I don't know my generations that well, but I think it's like around the eighties. You're right. And stuff and, and yeah, you're right.

[00:41:36] Brenda: It was four to 7% I think, potency in those days. So you aren't gonna have those kinds of issues where these vapes, I mean, it is just. Really super scary and a lot of times also I think there's the problem that the parents don't necessarily know because they're easily hideable. Yep. [00:42:00] You don't have a fragrance, so you can't necessarily smell it.

[00:42:04] Brenda: Yep. And so you, you might go for a while before you really even know what's going on. But then if you match that with, oh well, it's just weed and I hear the same thing, well, I'd rather have 'em doing that than drinking. 

[00:42:16] Nicole: Yep. 

[00:42:17] Brenda: Because, you know, they could go out and Dr. Drive drunk and it's like, oh, actually.

[00:42:23] Brenda: It's, it's really, really, really bad. And Oh, I feel so sorry for that girl. Yeah, I hope she can get some help. 

[00:42:32] Nicole: Yeah. Well, this was a while ago. She's doing much better now, but yes. Okay. Yeah, 

[00:42:36] Brenda: yeah, yeah. So it's, it's the wake up call for sure. And. You know, putting your head in the sand about it isn't gonna solve anything.

[00:42:46] Brenda: Um, that's right. And also that, that kind of coming down really hard with a lot of, um, confrontation. Doesn't it just drive that just drives it even more underground. So yeah, the, [00:43:00] it's, it feels to me like the root of it does go back to us being able to have those difficult conversations, ask our kids how they're doing.

[00:43:09] Brenda: I, I do think that that post COVID, this cohort of kids who were at home, even starting as young as 3, 4, 5, who were on iPads a lot, 

[00:43:20] Nicole: yeah. 

[00:43:20] Brenda: Those kids are now, call it nine 10. Mm-hmm. Or 10 to 13. And, and from what I hear in the mental health field is we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg, which is. Really scary.

[00:43:33] Brenda: Are you seeing, do you think that 

[00:43:34] Nicole: as well? Uh, absolutely. Which is why I made the change I made because one, we're never gonna have the mental health infrastructure for that and nor should we, frankly. Yeah. I mean, to me these are environmental issues. This is not, this isn't organic, this isn't biological, this isn't neurological.

[00:43:55] Nicole: This is purely preventable. Mm-hmm. And. [00:44:00] That's why I wanna be working with the parents and talking to the parents because we have so much power over this and we don't think we do and we think we need to defer to medicalizing it. And therapists and psychiatrists, and, I mean, in my area, you are lucky if you can get in to get a psychological test for a year.

[00:44:18] Nicole: Um, yeah. The child psychiatrists are booked for more than a year. And the therapists are starting to get to that point too. I was in my practice then, this was prior to COVID, I was turning families away. I had a wait list for years, and then COVID, oh God was just, it tipped the scales, um, in my practice and I thought, this cannot go on.

[00:44:38] Nicole: There will never be enough mental health care. 

[00:44:42] Brenda: No. I mean, that alone says something right there. Yeah. Like that's, that's a big telltale sign. What if you had the perf in the perfect world, if you could pick the time, like the age of the kids where you're interacting with their [00:45:00] parents, let's say they proactively come to you.

[00:45:02] Brenda: Mm-hmm. Right. There's not some horrible thing that's gone on in their household, but what at what age? Would you, of the kids, would you ideally want to start working with parents to really inform them of all of this? Um, 

[00:45:18] Nicole: somewhere around, like anywhere from three to 10, uh, is a really good range. Yeah, because this is a time when, um, there's still, I actually, I would say nine.

[00:45:32] Nicole: Um, this is a time when they're still looking at parents as like the center of their world. Right. You know, and, and parents are super influential. I mean, we're always influential, but before nine we're very influential. We're everything to them because at right at nine they go through, um, a big growth spurt emotionally, where they have a consciousness around themselves as an individual, and so they start to become aware more of the outside world and not that again, [00:46:00] parents don't have a big role to play in that.

[00:46:02] Nicole: But yeah, a little less important than we were before. 

[00:46:07] Brenda: Wow. Three to nine. That is just incredible. And I, I mean, I cannot agree more. I just think the more schools could be doing, or, you know, afterschool programming or something to help these kids really learn those coping skills. I know when my son, he went to wilderness therapy and I went to visit him and he just said, mom, where was I supposed to learn any of this?

[00:46:33] Brenda: Like. Yeah. He didn't, he hadn't, no one had taught him. I didn't teach him, you know, 'cause I also didn't really have a lot of coping skills. But yeah, it's, it's just so, so important, um, to do that. Well, 

[00:46:46] Nicole: this is where, this is where I would like to see schools investing more in parent education, then investing in teaching kids that, because I think if you teach parents, then parents are more po powerfully positioned to help their children with [00:47:00] that than anybody.

[00:47:02] Nicole: And there's the hundred percent, there's the connection. Like if you establish that connection and you keep that going because you now understand that they need, they need nature, they need to get out, so go for a walk. You know, I always call 'em, I call 'em Disney days. Parents feel like you were saying they, they wanna make their kids happy.

[00:47:19] Nicole: So when they have time, they wanna have a Disney Day with their kids and take them places and spend a lot of money and go overboard. And that's not what they need. Take them for a walk, put your phones down, go outside barefoot in the grass. And you know, that's really where schools can play a role is helping parents understand what, what their role is and what they need to do, and to be more involved in terms of the connection.

[00:47:45] Nicole: We have a lot of parents who are really great volunteers and they show up and they, you know, do all the things and they do the bake sales and the fundraisers. But we, we really want parents to know that putting your phone down and walking with your [00:48:00] kid is more important than anything. 

[00:48:02] Brenda: Yes. More important than the bake sale.

[00:48:04] Brenda: That's right. For sure. Yes. What would you say? So if there's the parent listening who's got, you know, a 13-year-old, a 19-year-old, and, and they realize, Hmm. Haven't really been doing a lot of this. Like we, we do have a hard time with being connected. We do have a hard time with our technology. They feel like, oh, it's probably too late.

[00:48:29] Brenda: What would you say to them? 

[00:48:30] Nicole: Yeah. I love that. I love you brought that up because it's never too late. And I do think that when we know better, we do better and we're all always learning and growing and it's very okay to say to your kid, Hey, we used to do things this way, and I realized it's actually not working.

[00:48:48] Nicole: And so I've learned. How to do it this way, and I wanna try it, and we're gonna try it and let's see how it goes. Hmm. And if it's something big, like you [00:49:00] need to take their phone away, or you need to have more limits on it, and you're scared that they're gonna revolt, then you start with an apology for bringing something into the family that you didn't know enough about.

[00:49:11] Nicole: And when we know better, we do better. And. You fill them up in the real world, because I always say stop telling the kids to get off their phones and show them what it's like to be connected, because show them they will choose that. 

[00:49:31] Brenda: Yeah, 

[00:49:32] Nicole: there's no comfort. 

[00:49:32] Brenda: Beautiful. Beautiful. Well that seems like a really good place to wrap it up.

[00:49:39] Brenda: I love that. It's not too late. There are things that you can do. It might be uncomfortable. Yeah. But we can do uncomfortable. We can do uncomfortable. Thank you so much. I'll put a link in the show notes to the book, free to Fly, and I hope everybody goes and gets that because this is, this is the foundation.

[00:49:58] Brenda: This is where it [00:50:00] starts and we have to be able to be brave, be strong, realize that we can get through it and then, and just realize how important it all, like it's all, we didn't even get to talk about food and all of that, but it's all connected. Yes, all connected. Yes. 

[00:50:16] Nicole: Thank you. Thanks for having you.

[00:50:18] Nicole: Appreciate 

[00:50:18] Brenda: it so much. Thanks.