Use Motivational Interviewing To Prevent Parenting Burnout, with Jennifer Ollis Blomqvist

ABOUT THE EPISODE:

When Jennifer Ollis Blomqvist discovered Motivational Interviewing (MI) in a Swedish women's prison 25 years ago, she found more than a therapeutic technique—she discovered the antidote to professional burnout and the foundation for every meaningful conversation in her life. 

Now an MI expert and trainer who works with everyone from incarcerated individuals to parents navigating their children's substance use, Jennifer brings a refreshing perspective on how this evidence-based approach transforms not just our difficult conversations, but our entire energetic contract with change itself.

In this conversation, Jennifer and I explore the delicate dance of supporting autonomy while maintaining boundaries, why school refusal might actually be a sophisticated form of communication, and how motivational interviewing becomes the connective tissue between love and limits. Her renowned book, "Lighthouse Conversations: Being a Beacon for Teens," will give you a practical framework for illuminating pathways without forcing direction - a critical distinction when your child's choices feel increasingly difficult to understand.

When you listen, you'll discover:

• Why sharing responsibility for change prevents parental burnout and creates more durable outcomes than attempting to architect your child's recovery alone

• How to navigate the cognitive friction between supporting autonomy and maintaining safety boundaries—including the counterintuitive power of "doing nothing" as an active intervention

• The critical difference between rolling with resistance versus reinforcing it, and why your nervous system's response matters more than your words

• How motivational interviewing grows with you through different life stages—from negotiating with toddlers to supporting aging parents—making it the most versatile tool in your communication repertoire

• Why school refusal might be your child's way of telling you they don't fit the institutional mold, and how MI can help you excavate the real issues beneath the  resistance you see at surface level

EPISODE RESOURCES:
Lighthouse Conversations: Being a Beacon for Teens
Jennifer’s website

Email: jennifer@novovia.se
Telephone: +46 736 - 19 54 46

This podcast is part of a nonprofit called Hopestream Community
Get our free, 4-video course, Hope Starts Here, and access to our Limited Membership here
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Download a free e-book, Worried Sick: A Compassionate Guide For Parents When Your Teen or Young Adult Child Misuses Drugs and Alcohol

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Brenda: Welcome to Hopestream. Excited for another motivational interviewing conversation. We were just chatting that like the, the MI nerds of the world tend to hang out together. Yes, we do. And we love it. I know, which I wish I could say I was part of your club. I am. Definitely not. But you know, Dee Dee Stout and some of the other folks I've had on.

[00:00:22] Brenda: Yeah. And, um. Man, if I could just, you know, I love CRAFT and everything, but I think if I could just magically download a huge amount of, you know, data into a parent's head, you know, would be motivational interviewing. 

[00:00:38] Jennifer: That sounds wonderful. You, you could be an honorary member if you'd like. 

[00:00:42] Brenda: Well, good. Okay.

[00:00:43] Brenda: I would love to be an honoree member. That would be very cool. Um, no, but I, I reached out to you because motivational interviewing continues to be. A game changer for the parents who use it. And also a topic that [00:01:00] gets, I think, um, overlooked sometimes in all of the other, you know, there's so much talk about trauma and there's so much talk about like, all these things and yes, that's all true.

[00:01:10] Brenda: But if you want a skill that's actually gonna make a difference in your living room tonight 

[00:01:16] Jennifer: mm-hmm. 

[00:01:17] Brenda: Is, is what you want to know, right? Yeah, 

[00:01:19] Jennifer: yeah, yeah. For sure. I mean, I, I think of, of mi as being kind of like the base, like the foundation of. How I, how I talk to people basically. Um, whether it's, whether I'm being like a mom at that time or a trainer or a husband or a wife or whatever, I'm always, um, I have this base and it's motivational interviewing, and then if I'm in sessions with clients, for example, then I'll have CBT, for example.

[00:01:50] Jennifer: So like, but, but mi is always the base base of what I do. 

[00:01:55] Brenda: Yeah. It's, it has really helped me so much in all of my [00:02:00] interactions with folks. Um, you know, my kids are older and they're, they don't live with me anymore. But, you know, even talking on the phone or you're talking with coworkers or your parents, it's just invaluable to have that, like you said, is that base reference for how I approach these conversations.

[00:02:19] Brenda: And we're gonna get into that for sure. Mm-hmm. But I would love to know. How, how did you find this and what made it something that you were like, wow, I'm going to, I'm gonna go full speed ahead into mi. Mm-hmm. 

[00:02:32] Jennifer: Uh, well, I, you know, when I studied psychology, uh, at university, I had heard a little of motivational interviewing, uh, and then I moved to Sweden and started working in the criminal justice system.

[00:02:46] Jennifer: So I worked in a women's prison and was what they call a program leader. So I basically worked with treatment, um, based on MI and CBT. And we also did this with, uh, in, in individual [00:03:00] sessions, but also in group. So, um, I found it here in Sweden and once I, once I started like I, I started using it, I realized, my gosh, this is what I need to be able to continue working for 50 years in this field.

[00:03:16] Jennifer: Right? Um, since I've learned MI and, you know, teach it, coach it, use it, practice it. Um, I feel like. I am not gonna get burned out because I, I share the responsibility of the change process and that, you know, dance with the other person or the group that I am, that I'm working with. Uh, that to me has been my game changer.

[00:03:42] Brenda: That is, oh gosh, that's something I'd never really thought about, that it really does help you stay in the game. 

[00:03:50] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:03:51] Brenda: Because I can't imagine the work that you do and other therapists do all the time. It's just gotta be mentally draining at some [00:04:00] point. But, but, um, I love that this really helps you be able to keep going, which is obviously something parents need too, right?

[00:04:08] Brenda: Because there feet are in the fire 24 7. 

[00:04:11] Jennifer: Yeah, exactly. And I think too, that motivational interviewing is because it's a way of being with someone else. Uh, it doesn't, it doesn't really matter who you're with. It's this other person that you have this interaction with. Um, you, you grow and change with mi.

[00:04:28] Jennifer: So I, I mean, I was thinking when I first learned mi I was, you know, new and new, uh, in a new country and I was like a girlfriend. And then, you know, now I have, you know, one 19-year-old and one almost 17-year-old. And my parents are the ones that I'm using lots of motivational interviewing with, right?

[00:04:47] Jennifer: 'cause they're getting up there in age. So I think that like motivational interviewing is something that helps you grow and grows with you. Yeah, there's not a lot of techniques and stuff that do that. 

[00:04:59] Brenda: Right? [00:05:00] No, it's so true. I, um, I went through the, Mayo Clinic has a health and wellness coaching program that I, uh, got certified through and we spent three days in person.

[00:05:10] Brenda: This was pre COVID. Learning, motivational interviewing, and I just remember my mind was just blown. Yeah. It was so different than anything I had ever really learned before. And I remember thinking at the time, man, I wish I had had this when I was in business. This would've been super helpful. Well, when I was in business negotiating deals and interacting with really difficult clients.

[00:05:35] Brenda: Mm-hmm. 

[00:05:35] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:05:36] Brenda: So. Okay, cool. So you're in Sweden, which I forgot to mention. Yeah. So what are you doing in Sweden? 

[00:05:42] Jennifer: Well, my husband is Swedish, so when I finished university I thought, Hey, I'll go hang out with this Swedish guy and. That was 25 years ago. 

[00:05:51] Brenda: Wow. So you moved from, I think you said Canada? Yes, with Sweden.

[00:05:57] Brenda: Yeah. I'm born in RE in 

[00:05:58] Jennifer: Edmonton. So quite, [00:06:00] quite 

[00:06:00] Brenda: near year 

[00:06:00] Jennifer: actually. Yeah. That's okay. 

[00:06:02] Brenda: Yeah. So did you just learn Swedish? 

[00:06:06] Jennifer: I did, yeah. At first, I drove around in my blue Honda with like a tape back in those days when we had tape, you know? Yeah. Anyway, and I would, would speak Swedish, you know, hi, my name is, and then I'd say it in Swedish and stuff.

[00:06:19] Jennifer: So, I mean, sure the tape helped me a little bit, but when I came to Sweden, I learned Swedish, um, for immigrants. And then after two years I got a job. So, and it was in the criminal justice system too. So that's kind of, when you're forced to speak, that's when you think the best. 

[00:06:36] Brenda: Nothing like just diving in and figuring it out.

[00:06:39] Brenda: Right. 

[00:06:39] Jennifer: You might as well. 

[00:06:41] Brenda: Yeah. I would love to know, this isn't really related to the topic, but what's, what's the youth substance use landscape like in Sweden? You know, like we're, so, I think in the US we tend to, for like, we just think the US is the entire world, but I know there, there's. [00:07:00] There, there are kids doing the same kind of shenanigans over there that we've got here, but what does it look like in 2025, uh, with, you know, youth and substance use there?

[00:07:10] Jennifer: Yeah, well we've got, uh, pretty much the same things that you have over there. I mean, um, it. Fentanyl perhaps isn't as big as it is over there, maybe, but, um, there's lots of marijuana and there's lots of like, push for, uh, certain groups to legalize it. For example, um, hand sanitizer, drinking hand sanitizer right now, um, oh, now I'm gonna forget the word, but laughing gas.

[00:07:38] Jennifer: Um, a really popular one now at the teens. Um, so yeah, so the same. You know, different drug, different things to use, but the function of them is the same. 

[00:07:50] Brenda: Yeah. And alcohol, I would imagine is, and alcohol, yes. It's always the number one, right? It's, 

[00:07:54] Jennifer: yeah. Yeah. It's the, and of course vaping and smoking and like all Yeah, for sure.

[00:07:58] Brenda: Yeah. [00:08:00] Yeah. Well, um, one of the things that when I talk to our parents, you know, I talk about motivational interviewing and. Sometimes it's brand new to them. They're like, what are you talking about? I've never heard of this Who've been around a little bit longer. Yeah. You know, I've, I've been trying to use some of that and one, there's two barriers that I see.

[00:08:19] Brenda: Mm-hmm. And I'd love to get your thoughts on them. Mm-hmm. To using mi. One is just a state of dysregulation that the parent is so exhausted, so frazzled. So kind of up in their head and they just don't have the presence of mind. 'cause it does take skill for sure. 

[00:08:38] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:38] Brenda: To actually like use the right phrases or come and maybe you can talk a little bit about the spirit of mi.

[00:08:46] Brenda: Mm-hmm. So that's one. The other barrier that I see is. Compassion fatigue. Like this kid has me worn death, hopefully. Yeah, I know. I should feel compassionate. I know [00:09:00] there's a reason why they're doing this. I know that I need to have empathy and I just can't. 

[00:09:05] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:09:06] Brenda: Yeah. So I would love to have you talk a little bit about what you see with that and maybe some thoughts on how we can 

[00:09:12] Speaker 3: Hmm.

[00:09:12] Brenda: Combat that. And then I wanna dive into some of the more like the actual skills. Mm-hmm. If that's okay? 

[00:09:18] Jennifer: Yeah. Sounds good. Um, we can start with the conte compassion fatigue thing, because that's something, um, that I was talking about before is that when I, when I started to learn motivational interviewing and I practiced it and, you know, 'cause it's like an instrument, right?

[00:09:35] Jennifer: You have to practice continually to be able to, you know, be good at it and. I really noticed, like my shoulders dropped from my ears, you know, I felt like, okay, the responsibility is not on me alone, like I am in this partnership or this team with, you know, my daughter or son or, or with the client or whoever I'm working with.

[00:09:57] Jennifer: So honestly, I [00:10:00] feel like motivational interviewing is the way that I. Have been able to continue doing that. So I'm not sure if it's like a solution to compassion fatigue, but it definitely has helped me not end up with compassion fatigue. 

[00:10:14] Brenda: Right, right. So 

[00:10:15] Jennifer: there is a huge, there's a huge, I think there's a huge, um, like pro to actually using this as a parent even long before, uh, there's a problem, like, like substance or, uh, use or abuse.

[00:10:32] Jennifer: So that's the first thing I wanna say. And then I think, uh, like we were talking about that before too, but taking care of yourself is the most important. I referenced in my book, and probably every many people have said it, but it's the whole, when you're on a plane, you put the mask on yourself first, and then you put the mask on the people you're helping.

[00:10:50] Jennifer: And that's, that's what we have to do in order for us to be our best versions of ourselves and actually role model behavior that we want a teen or a child to. [00:11:00] To do, um, we actually have to take care of ourselves, so that's super important. 

[00:11:05] Brenda: Yeah, and in your book you go into that, I know there's chapters on self-care, which I was so happy to see.

[00:11:11] Brenda: I think without that reminder, it can be easy to mm-hmm. Try something like, am I, and then get frustrated because maybe you think, oh, it's not working. 

[00:11:20] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:21] Brenda: When really it's just the fact that you're not in a position where you're able to fully implement it, you know? And like you said, that shared burden of knowing that this isn't all on me.

[00:11:31] Brenda: Mm-hmm. I, I'm, I'm using this to really pull information outta my child. To understand what they're going through, understand what motivates 'em. Yeah. Understand what might, you know, cause them to make some change. And that does feel like a oof like, yeah. Okay. Yeah, we're doing this together. This isn't me having all the answers.

[00:11:52] Brenda: Yeah. That I am just going to like instruct you to do. 

[00:11:56] Jennifer: Yeah, exactly. And because of that partnership or that [00:12:00] collaboration that kind of kicks into like your first, uh, like question here is that, um, using your team as like the expert, like learning from them will also help with the dysregulation. Um, because how we see.

[00:12:17] Jennifer: Like a teen or, or children is actually how they will see themselves. So I, I focus lots in the book and even in motivational interviewing lots on the positives or focusing on what works. Um, it's very easy to focus on when, when a teen isn't doing what they're supposed to do. It's like, I, I mean, I have a dog.

[00:12:38] Jennifer: You have a dog, we have dogs. Yeah. Yeah. I always talk about like the clicking, right? When you're training, training dogs, you click the behavior you want more of. You don't click what the behavior you want. You know what I mean? So like you got, you gotta, um, and that helps because once you start to click the right behaviors, then you start to see those positive behaviors and [00:13:00] then you can actually comment on those positive behaviors.

[00:13:03] Jennifer: The dysregulation will, will relax because you're not as angry with them with the team. 

[00:13:08] Brenda: Yeah. That is such a good analogy. I'd never thought about that, but I do remember trying to train one of my previous dogs with the clicker. Yeah. And it was shocking to see how they actually do respond to that. Oh yeah.

[00:13:23] Brenda: Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. And we are not comparing kids to dogs, which is No, we're not. The, um, approach that, uh, that works. So where would you have a parent start? Imagine you've got a mom or dad with a, let's call it a 17-year-old, who's vaping high potency, THC. There's. Really bad breakdown of communication in the home.

[00:13:48] Brenda: Yeah. You know, they keep breaking boundaries, like they're bringing the weed into the house or they're not coming home at night, or mm-hmm. And then there's another situation that I, but sort of, that's just our general, I would say that's a [00:14:00] very common scenario. Where would you have a parent start? 

[00:14:03] Jennifer: So the first thing I would do is, um, like, like I'm, if we're talking about the, for example.

[00:14:10] Jennifer: Somebody doesn't come home in time. Well, there's a time and a place to discuss certain things like communication. It's important to not only like handle a conversation in the moment, but it's also okay to stand back from that conversation. Say, I'm, I'm not okay with, with, you know, we had agreed that you were gonna come up with this time and you're not home.

[00:14:31] Jennifer: We need to like take a pause and then we'll talk about it tomorrow and then talk about it tomorrow. And that's where you pull, like pull the motivational engineering from. I think to expect ourselves to be completely, I don't know, wonderful all the time is a really high expectation that nobody can live up to.

[00:14:49] Jennifer: So that's also with the self-care thing. Um, so, but one of the things I think is important is to look in the mirror. What behaviors am I. What am I [00:15:00] doing and how is the team responding to that behavior? And sometimes it can be enough to stop doing some of the things you're doing to get a change in the team.

[00:15:10] Jennifer: And what I mean by that is, for example, I mean an, an easy example would be like being up and angry and yelling, for example. Um, that. Will create resistance, anger in the team, which then I have to deal with. So if I could just, you know, take my time out, take my, like, I'm gonna, I'm very feeling, very anger right now, so I'm going to, we'll talk about this tomorrow.

[00:15:35] Jennifer: Um, you win a lot. Or for example, one of the things that I'm, I talk to a lot when it comes to parenting and vaping is we start Tora, like talk all about, well, you know, vaping's bad for you. You know, this is bad and all the consequences. And here we go and we're sitting there having like a, I don't know, like a seminar with this teen who's like, you don't even know what you're talking about.

[00:15:58] Jennifer: Right? And that's something we [00:16:00] all also can just stop. They know what the negative consequences, we don't need to tell them that. So. Just like say like that. So, and I think in the book I talk about the, there are these, these like, um, hinders or, no, not that Swedish word. Like yeah. Anyway, there, there are ways that show that you're not listening even though you think you are.

[00:16:22] Brenda: Mm. Warning 

[00:16:22] Jennifer: or, you know, moralizing or, um, you know, just trying to tell them that, tell them what to do. 

[00:16:34] Brenda: It doesn't work. Yeah. That doesn't really work. No, we, and it's amazing that we continue to try, you know, we do, we, we become a professor and provide a lecture. Mm-hmm. And we just don't understand why our student isn't listening to our lecture.

[00:16:49] Brenda: Yeah. Why? Why they're not just fascinated with all of the information that we're dumping on them. 

[00:16:53] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:16:53] Brenda: So, okay. So we take a pause, they haven't come home, we take a pause the next day. We know we [00:17:00] need to address this issue of not coming home on time. 'cause it's probably not just a one-time thing. This is probably a, you know mm-hmm.

[00:17:07] Brenda: Something that's happened before. How do we open that conversation? 

[00:17:10] Jennifer: Right. So one of my favorite, um, like strategies in motivational interviewing, um, is explore, offer. Explore. And it's kind of like a mini. I conversation, like all wrapped in one, um, where the first step exploring how the team feel, what they think about the situation.

[00:17:30] Jennifer: So for example, if they didn't come home in time, I would perhaps start with, um, uh, the other day we agreed on what time you would come home. I'm just wondering how, how is that working for us now? And then you kind of like explore this and talk a little about it and see where the, where the teen's at, right.

[00:17:50] Jennifer: Um, and then um, after that, you know, you do all your firming and you know, listening and not judging and all that. And [00:18:00] then you use the expert offer and that's where it's our turn to tell the team what we think. And then we come into like the I messages that I was really worried when you didn't come home on time.

[00:18:13] Jennifer: And I feel disappointed that the agreement that we made wasn't held up. Um. Then the second or the third step is explore again. Like what does the team think about what I just said? So it's like the dance, right? You first explore what they're wondering about, and then you offer, you send your message in a respectful way, of course, and then you wanna know what they think, what they're gonna do with the message that you've given.

[00:18:40] Jennifer: Um, it sounds complicated, but it's kind of like, first I wanna know what the team thinks about what I wanna talk about. Then I'll say what I, I think. Then I'll ask them what they think about what I think. Does that make sense? 

[00:18:54] Brenda: Yeah, it totally does. Yeah. And I think we often skip that first. [00:19:00] Yeah. The first explore.

[00:19:01] Brenda: So we just dive straight into Yeah. You know, I was really worried. Yeah. And sometimes, and I, I just know this from other conversations, sometimes that first explore the first E of the EOE, which I, I always like a good acronym. 

[00:19:17] Speaker 3: Yeah. I 

[00:19:18] Brenda: love. That will sometimes almost resolve the whole thing. Yeah. In itself.

[00:19:24] Brenda: Yeah. Because you might say, Hey, you know, I know that we agreed you're gonna be home. I wondering what happened last night? 'cause you weren't, you know, you were an hour late. Right. And then they may, because everybody's had time to calm down. Nobody's yelling and screaming and nobody's under the influence, which is important.

[00:19:40] Brenda: Yeah. They may tell you, oh mom, you know, Susie's car broke down and we had to walk and blah, blah, blah. And so. If we skip that first E we miss a lot of information. 

[00:19:53] Jennifer: Yeah, exactly. Or they could even say like, you know, mom, I, I screwed up. I know that I was [00:20:00] home late and I know we agreed and I'm just like, I feel really bad about it.

[00:20:04] Jennifer: And then, then you kind of don't have to say anything that you're disappointed because they already know. So it's also kind of like, it's, it saves the relationship, like once the, once the exploration is finished, you don't have to actually continue. Um, yeah. If you were to continue, then it would almost be like guilt tripping, right?

[00:20:23] Jennifer: Like, yeah, I was really worried and yeah, tell, tell your husband about that, or your purse or your therapist or whatever. But, but you know, the, the teen already knows, 

[00:20:37] Brenda: so, yeah. And, and a big part of that, and you mentioned this, but I'd like to, to dig into it a little bit, is actually listening. Mm-hmm. To them.

[00:20:48] Brenda: So if you're gonna ask and explore, then you actually have to listen to what they're saying. Otherwise, you might as well not ask 'em to, to Yeah. Tell you anything. Yeah. What are some tricks [00:21:00] for, because we get so in our head, right? Yeah. And we're, we got, we're just like. Overhear, you know, concocting these amazing responses.

[00:21:09] Brenda: Yeah. How do we stop that craziness so that we can actually listen to them? 

[00:21:15] Jennifer: Yeah. It's, that's, it's hard because your emotions are there too. Right. But one of the things I remember is there's, um, social skills, um, like different. I'm not sure if I brought it up in my book or not, but anyway, how you know, to say no and how to be assertive and all of these sorts of social skills training.

[00:21:33] Jennifer: And there's one for listening and step one is listen to what the person is saying. Step two, think about what the person is saying. And then I can't remember the others because I just think those first two are awesome. Yeah. And for me, that's what I do. I, I have to turn off and stop thinking because I need to take in what they're saying.

[00:21:54] Jennifer: I know it sounds really easy, but it's, it's seriously just to give yourself like, what [00:22:00] is this? What is this? Like, what are they trying to tell me? I'm like just taking it in, letting it marinate, and then think about what it means. 

[00:22:11] Brenda: Yeah. What are some of the ways that you keep them talking? So maybe they're starting to tell you some stuff and you're like.

[00:22:19] Brenda: Oh, mm-hmm. This is interesting. I didn't know this well. How, um, if we're truly listening and not just like reloading the next conversation in our mind, are there like your go-to phrases or certain things that we can say that keep the conversation going? Because I, I have found sometimes I'll be like. Oh, and then I respond like, well, did you know blah, blah, blah, and then it just shuts 'em down.

[00:22:46] Jennifer: Yeah. Oh yeah, exactly. I think there's verbal responses, just like what you said. Oh, interesting. Like you just, you can respond, but then stop there. You know? Like, don't ask a question or try to solve [00:23:00] something, or whatever. Just like giving those, those verbal cues is like, oh, interesting. That'll keep them talking.

[00:23:07] Jennifer: Right. And you can also use nonverbal cues like, um, like nodding your head or like you're doing right now, like, nodding your head or, or like kind of like ha you know, showing that you're thinking, showing that you're trying to understand verbally and non-verbally. Um, those are my tips. Yeah. Sometimes the best, the best advice I can give is like, literally bite your tongue.

[00:23:32] Jennifer: Don't do anything. Don't say

[00:23:37] Brenda: I like that one. We, we call it a lip clip where mm-hmm. Like, you know, the little chip clip that you use on a bag of chips. And sometimes we just need to like, yeah. I so badly wanna say something. Yeah. And I'm not going to, um, yeah, we have a term 

[00:23:55] Jennifer: for that in Swedish. I, it, I don't think that I can translate it very well, but you know.[00:24:00] 

[00:24:00] Jennifer: You know it, it's called okay. You know, when you have to go to the bathroom in like you have to go pee or something, they'll, um, they'll call it here in Swedish, pee needy. Uh, so they'll, like, you'll hear a kid say like, mommy, mommy, I'm pee needy. Uh, and so the little kid will go to the bathroom and then they're not pee needy anymore.

[00:24:18] Jennifer: So in Sweden we say, help needy. 

[00:24:22] Speaker 3: Oh, it has 

[00:24:23] Jennifer: the same sort of thing. Like I am in this relationship or, or conversation and I really wanna help. Right? I really need to do it. I am help needy. And so when I go and I like say to the teen, oh, do this, do that. 

[00:24:40] Speaker 3: Boom. 

[00:24:41] Jennifer: I've fulfilled that need, right? I've gone to the bathroom.

[00:24:45] Jennifer: Um, and the only person that like benefits from that is me. Yes. Do you know what I mean? Yes. So I love, I love talking about that because it's like, it's so, yeah. When I'm pee [00:25:00] needy and I go to the bathroom, the person that benefits the most is me. 'cause I don't have to go to the bathroom anymore. My water doesn't gonna 

[00:25:06] Brenda: hurt anymore.

[00:25:07] Jennifer: Exactly. So that's, that's what I try and talk to a lot of parents about as well is like, what is it that makes you help needy? Um, because when we get help needy. The only thing we wanna do is, is stop being needy. Yeah. So that like find your triggers, what you know, what makes you most worried, and then try and like deal with that before you actually get help 

[00:25:33] Brenda: needy.

[00:25:33] Brenda: Great. I love that. That is so brilliant. It's so brilliant. 

[00:25:39] Jennifer: The 

[00:25:39] Brenda: better ways. It's like, oh, I'm just over here to like, oh wow, that is really good. Like. Help needy. And it does feel so good when we just unload. Yeah. All of our knowledge. Yeah. All of our brilliance. Go to listen to this podcast episode, you know, read this article.

[00:25:55] Brenda: Yeah. Talk to this person. And we just dump it all and then we're like, oh. [00:26:00] And our kid is over there looking at us like, you are insane. Yeah, exactly. If you're, you're a crazy person. 

[00:26:04] Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. So the, but we 

[00:26:06] Brenda: feel better. 

[00:26:07] Jennifer: Yeah, we feel much better. We feel much better because we've unloaded, but yeah, no, it's not, it's not helping the other person.

[00:26:13] Jennifer: And I think that's what motivational interviewing has done for me is taught me, okay, I am help needy. 'cause we're, you know, and, and especially as a parent, I think we're even way more help needy. Um, but it's taught me to, like in my brain, I know that. I'm not showing compassion to my daughter. If I'm help needy, I am showing compassion to myself, but not to her.

[00:26:39] Jennifer: So Right. There's a time and a place for those Cool. For both those actions. 

[00:26:45] Brenda: Yeah. That's going to, that's gonna stick in my brain there for a while. 'cause I love that one. What about I, I had a son who. Was very verbal. Very vocal. Mm. Uh, which had [00:27:00] its pluses and minuses. I know a lot of people have kids who are very quiet.

[00:27:06] Brenda: They do not talk. Yeah. They're in their room isolated, playing video games or, you know, they're, they're just like getting them to say a word is like pulling teeth. Yeah. How can motivational interviewing help with that? 

[00:27:20] Jennifer: Yeah. The, the thing. Yeah. 'cause the point of any conversation is we cannot force a person to talk unless they feel comfortable, they're ready, willing, and able to talk to us.

[00:27:35] Jennifer: So for me, when we have somebody who's not very vocal. Just being with them is kind of enough. So if, if I'm talking with a parent, for example, and, and their kid is playing a lot and worrying about gaming and whatever, and so I'll, let's say, have you, have you gone into the room and hung out while they're gaming?

[00:27:54] Jennifer: No. Boo. I just think they should stop gaming. Okay. But you know, [00:28:00] like it, that's one thing to do. I mean, I remember doing that with my son. Like I, he played a lot of Fortnite when he was younger, and I was like, I guess I gotta learn. Like, if I wanna spend time with him, I'm gonna have to learn. So I went in and I was learning and I was like, oh, why'd you shoot that guy and why'd you do, you know?

[00:28:14] Jennifer: And then because of that he, he was like, oh, you're showing interest in something that I like, oh, maybe I won't mind talking to my mom when. Yeah, I don't wanna talk about something. So I think that's a really important thing is like meeting them where they are, um, and, and providing yourself with opportunities to have a conversation.

[00:28:35] Jennifer: That's why driving in a car, like taking teens to sports or piano lessons or whatever best conversations there. Yeah, because they don't have to look at each other. You're just like, you know, facing forward. Right. 

[00:28:48] Brenda: Yeah. No, those are like the magic, the magic spaces. Mm-hmm. It's amazing what they will tell you.

[00:28:56] Brenda: Yeah. When you're side by, sometimes you might lost [00:29:00] because you know you want to make, get some extra time in the car. Yeah, 

[00:29:04] Jennifer: exactly. GPS and having Google Maps really sucks at the moment because you get lost is easy, you know? 

[00:29:10] Brenda: It's like, no, I need 10 more minutes. Exactly. Well, I I, I appreciate the input on the kind of closed down kid.

[00:29:22] Brenda: Mm-hmm. Because that's not something that I experienced. I had the very verbally explosive kid, and, and maybe we could talk about that too. What do, what do you do with that? Because I would. Literally be walking around on eggshells. Yeah, just wondering. Okay. I'm gonna say like, Hey, could you unload the dishwasher please.

[00:29:43] Brenda: You know, this was when he was still living at home. Um, and I never knew what that was going to turn into, or if I was trying to have, you know, a conversation about, Hey, you know, you haven't been to school for a week. Like true. What's going on, [00:30:00] and I didn't know any of this. I was completely clueless. So I definitely came at it from a very like confrontational stance.

[00:30:08] Brenda: Yeah. But what do we do with the more aggressive, outspoken, you know, kiddo who's not afraid to tell you exactly how they feel like they're the ones that are just, you know, putting it all out there in in. It's sort of like an explosion waiting to happen every time. Yeah, 

[00:30:27] Jennifer: well definitely like whe when you have somebody who's like, verbally aggressive or like for, or even aggressive at all, like the first thing is your own safety of course, you know, keep that in mind.

[00:30:38] Jennifer: Um, but if we're having conversations, like one of the things I would never, like, for example, meeting them at the, the yelling for example, that, that. Obviously makes for more yummy and a big conflict and stuff. So I would try to like, you know, kind of bring them down a level, uh, or like set a boundaries is, you know, I really, really wanna hear what you have to say.[00:31:00] 

[00:31:00] Jennifer: Um, right now I can't hear because it's at a volume that my ears are shutting off at. So let's take this another day, or you're welcome to like. Tone it down a bit so we can talk. So, you know, using, using, like, I think what's important also with MI or what's helped me is like calling it as it is, it's not the type of like, uh, canceling style where you try and go around and it's like, you know, this isn't working for me.

[00:31:33] Jennifer: Or if I'm walking around on eggshells at home, like, how, how do we wanna have this. In our house. Like how, what kind of environment do we wanna have? What's important to you? This is important to me. How can we like meet? Um, and having those kinds of conversations are important because then you're not just saying, I am feeling like I have to walk on eggshells and I don't like that.

[00:31:56] Jennifer: You can say like, how do you want it? How do you want me [00:32:00] to meet you? This is what I, what do you think of that? And that, that's the whole like, again, explore, offer, explore. You can see happening. 

[00:32:10] Brenda: Yeah. Um, I like that. I like being able to talk about how do, like, how do we wanna meet each other mm-hmm. In this?

[00:32:20] Brenda: Yeah. Because it feels really respectful. Mm-hmm. And I think that's one of the things I really like about MI is that it does feel very respectful. 

[00:32:28] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:32:28] Brenda: Because you're not lecturing somebody, you're not telling them what to do. Yeah. You're really trying to pull out of them. Mm-hmm. And understand from their.

[00:32:38] Brenda: Internal point of view. Yeah. What they're thinking or what they wanna do. Yeah. Yeah. And I, it's, it feels really hard, I think at times when you know, you have a kid, like if we go back to the kiddo who's vaping, to approach that with curiosity when we So disapprove of it. [00:33:00] Yeah, exactly. It can feel like I'm.

[00:33:03] Brenda: I am endorsing it if I'm curious about it. Does that make sense? 

[00:33:07] Jennifer: It does make sense. And that's the thing, it's, that's so hard with, uh, with being a parent and using motivational interviewing is really having that balance. Like, okay, right now I can't be curious 'cause I am pissed off and I can't believe that my kid is throwing their life away by, you know, drinking or vaping or whatever it is.

[00:33:28] Jennifer: Um, so at that moment I can't. You know, turn on the, my brain, but later on you can say, you know, I'm really, I, I was, I was a little frustrated before and I wasn't able to listen to you. But now I'm curious like, what, what does it give you? Like, what, what are, what are the pros? What, how do you feel when you do it?

[00:33:47] Jennifer: Um, and then of course, going over to the other side is like, what sorts of. What, what happens when you don't do it and what, what would happen? What would be positive if you don't do it? You know, like, uh, working through [00:34:00] that ambivalence? 

[00:34:01] Brenda: Yeah. At the ambivalence. Oof. Wow. So it, with teenagers, man, you could just, it makes your head spin.

[00:34:10] Brenda: Yeah. You are like, wait a minute. You say you want to be on the football team. You're also vaping every day after school. So how does that I 

[00:34:18] Jennifer: that, well, yeah, that's actually another thing that's really important with motivational, intervene. I haven't touched on it yet. It's this whole idea of supporting autonomy.

[00:34:28] Jennifer: Uh, autonomy is like a beautiful word for being like self determinant. I am the one who wants to decide things. I wanna be able to regulate, I wanna be able to choose, I wanna be able to take responsibility for my actions. That's what I wanna be an autonomous person. I don't want my mom and dad to tell me what to do or teachers or whatever.

[00:34:50] Jennifer: Um, and just with teens support, when we support their autonomy, it helps them to change in much [00:35:00] faster. Like it works the best, uh, out of any technique really. Um, and one way you can do this is. Is a lot of people will say like, well, I can't tell my kid. Like, well, it's your choice if you wanna, you know, shoot up or not.

[00:35:13] Jennifer: And like, you know, as a mother, I can't, I can't ever imagine myself saying that, but I could imagine myself saying like, okay, so you've got this choice, right? You're, you're at a crossroads. You can either like continue on this life that you're leading now or you can make a change. What do you see are the pros and cons of the one of continuing to use.

[00:35:37] Jennifer: What do you see are the pros and cons of making the change? And then what kind of connect or like, summarize all of that. Then it's like a little package and you give it back to the teen and you say like, what do you make of all this? So they might still make the wrong choice according to us, but we're, we're trying to help them, uh, like get their little [00:36:00] autonomy consequence mind, like, like muscles working out.

[00:36:06] Jennifer: I think that that is what I love the most about MI is everybody has a choice. It might not be a choice between awesome choice number one and really bad choice number two. So it's easy, right? It could be like crappy choice one and crappy choice two. Um, but it's still a choice. And our role as adults is to help teens and children see that these are my choices.

[00:36:33] Jennifer: There are pros and cons to both. I gotta put my big boy pants on, a big girl pants on and make the best choice and take ability for the, the consequences, 

[00:36:45] Brenda: right? That autonomy piece is huge, especially as teens are starting to pull away and they're feeling that. You know, like I kind of still need my parents for some stuff, but I really don't wanna need them for some stuff.[00:37:00] 

[00:37:00] Brenda: But the way you just described that, I bet people are gonna be rewinding their little podcast machines right now. Mm-hmm. To how you, you kind of framed that up of, okay, you've got some choices here. 

[00:37:10] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:11] Brenda: What does, what does this one look like? What does that one look like? And then not jumping in and saying, so clearly you need to do this.

[00:37:17] Brenda: You know, like, 'cause that's what we tend to do, is, yeah. Well, we may even get to the point where we can say, oh, look at this. Look at this. Okay, well obviously if you are not an idiot, you're gonna do this one, right? Mm-hmm. That's where we tend to go. But what you did is you handed it back and said, what do you make of this?

[00:37:34] Brenda: Mm-hmm. Which is a beautiful phrase. Because it's so open. Mm-hmm. And it, and it does give them that autonomy and agency to say like, oh, what am I gonna do with this? 

[00:37:45] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:37:45] Brenda: Yeah. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Yeah, I love those words. Um, because that's kind like, 

[00:37:51] Jennifer: that's actually the whole thing with motivational interviewing is like trying to get the other, that sounded bad.

[00:37:57] Jennifer: Like not trying to get but [00:38:00] encouraging the other person to express their own arguments and motivations for change. So if, if, if, if a teen says, Hey, you know, I'm thinking that I, I'm not gonna be able to continue playing football if I keep, you know, smoking marijuana and, you know, and vaping and stuff 'cause my lungs can't handle it.

[00:38:21] Jennifer: They'll hear themselves say that, and then they'll start to believe it more because it's their own voice. Right. Whereas if I was to say, Hey, you know, like, your, your lungs aren't gonna be able to handle it. Like, you're not gonna get your scholarship to the foot, you know, blah, blah. 

[00:38:35] Brenda: Right. Mom. 

[00:38:37] Jennifer: Um, so it's really important to, like, when we do this whole, like, you know, supporting autonomy that I can say, what do you see are the alternatives here?

[00:38:47] Jennifer: Oh, like, quit continue. Okay. If you quit or continue, what are the pros and cons for you? Not what I think would be pros and cons, and then the little package summarize [00:39:00] and give it back. These are all of your words. What's the best 

[00:39:04] Brenda: decision? Yeah, you, these are all your words. I, that's what I, I did learn the phrase people, people believe what they hear themselves say.

[00:39:14] Brenda: Yeah. And I think that's so important. And you know, it's all good and lovely while Jennifer and I I are sitting here on a podcast on a beautiful day and there's no teenagers or 

[00:39:25] Speaker 3: like, everything is very 

[00:39:26] Brenda: peaceful. Everything's calm, our dogs are happy. Um, and I think it's important, what I have learned at least, is that the first couple of times that you try to open this door in a new way, they might look at you like a martian and run because they're like.

[00:39:42] Brenda: Where is my mom? What did you do with her? This is not how we communicate. Right. It's properly. And so you may have to do it multiple times. And even like you said, just say, just say it like it is, like I'm trying something new. Mm-hmm. Because the way we've been communicating, yelling, [00:40:00] screaming, punching holes in the wall, slamming doors, hasn't really worked.

[00:40:04] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:40:05] Brenda: So I'm trying something new and I really am curious about these things. Because what we want is we want to try it and have them just open up. Yeah. And they tell us those things and then they're gonna pick the right one and then we're gonna move on. 

[00:40:21] Jennifer: Yeah. And that's the thing is nothing is a quick fix.

[00:40:24] Jennifer: I think if any, your listeners know that like, we wish there was a quick fix for this problem. We, you know, but there isn't. Um, unfortunately. But what there is is. Because I think this is where the responsibility bit comes in for me, because if I am in a, in a twosome, like let's say I'm responsible for 50% of it, so I can do everything that I can, I can ask my open questions, I can support autonomy, I can do explore, offer, explore.

[00:40:54] Jennifer: I can do all of these things, but that's only 50%. There's another person there. I can't, I'm [00:41:00] not responsible for what that other person chooses to do or not. Yeah. And that is also about respecting autonomy. 'cause I can support it, but I also need to respect it and accept it. And it doesn't matter if like you're a 2-year-old or an 80-year-old.

[00:41:17] Jennifer: Autonomy is one of our basic psychological needs. We need to feel like we can control things for ourselves and regulate them. 

[00:41:27] Brenda: Yeah. And the other thing that I think happens that is so frustrating is you might, you might have a conversation about these two different paths. You could go down path A, you could go down path B.

[00:41:38] Brenda: Mm-hmm. Clearly there's some, you know, maybe there's more negatives on path B. And they choose path B. Mm-hmm. And you're like, hold on. Mm-hmm. Can't you see what you like? You just told me path B is worse. You're still choosing it and like you just said, we have to respect that autonomy. 

[00:41:58] Jennifer: Yeah. As it [00:42:00] we can us.

[00:42:00] Jennifer: Exactly. And we can also ask that question that you just did. It was perfect. Just say, okay, interesting. You know, and like it's like mirroring back to them. Like, ha, you had these positives here and more negatives here on you. You chose the negative like this, this particular alternative. Tell me more about your thoughts about that.

[00:42:18] Jennifer: Like continue. Because it's like, it's like this muscle, right? Like if we go to the gym and we wanna, I don't know, have bigger bi, I don't go to the gym, so I don't know these things, but, you know, bigger biceps or whatever, you, you, you have to like continue working. You don't just do it once, like you're super strong, right?

[00:42:36] Jennifer: Uh, so that's, that's this whole thing with motivational interviewing is we need to, you know, treat it like biceps, you know, working it out, doing it over and over. But we also need to let our children and our teens. Be able to work their brain biceps. Yeah. 

[00:42:54] Brenda: Yeah. They've got to get their reps in just like us.

[00:42:56] Jennifer: Yeah, exactly. I 

[00:42:58] Brenda: like, I like that because, [00:43:00] um, so many times they do make, they do make a choice that looks crazy and unhealthy and scary. And the way that you just said that, like, oh, that's really interesting 'cause you pointed out so many negatives about that, and that's still what you're gonna do. Tell me more about why you chose that one.

[00:43:16] Brenda: Exactly. Versus you are a moron. Yeah. I can't believe you're gonna do that. Yeah. You know, just wait till you see where that ends. You, you're gonna end up in jail. Like Yeah. Those, those just shut the conversation down immediately. Exactly. 

[00:43:30] Jennifer: And, and really if we're looking for, uh, an, a sort of reaction like, oh, oh my God, that's the question we wanna do.

[00:43:39] Jennifer: Tell me more about why you choose that when you see so many negatives. I'll be like, yeah. But I thought if I said that you'd shut up and leave. 

[00:43:49] Brenda: They're gonna be like, dang, my mom got this. Some ninja skills isn't, is she listening to the Hope Dream podcast? She really, that bulk, that lighthouse [00:44:00] conversation is a book.

[00:44:00] Brenda: What's going on here that I don't approve? 

[00:44:03] Jennifer: Should abandon like Ninja. Instead, it's a lighthouse. Exactly. But I do think it is a lighthouse because on the book, and that's why I called it Lighthouse Conversations as well, is because I see our role as adults, regardless of if we're parents or teachers or scout leaders or whatever, like we are, um, we're there on this earth to help guide.

[00:44:26] Jennifer: We don't like take over, um, boats when they come in, right? We're just there to guide them safely regardless of if it's a stormy sea or if it's calm. We still stand and we still support and we continue to support. Um, it's really, it's really important. So, and yeah, that's why it's called Lighthouse Conversations being a beacon for 

[00:44:50] Brenda: Teon being a beacon.

[00:44:52] Brenda: That is awesome. Well, the last thing I'd love to ask you about, just because it's so common, uh, is school [00:45:00] refusal. Yeah. So many of our kids. Refuse to go to school or they go to school for a short period of time during day and then they leave. Yeah. And I wonder if you have any magic that you could give us on this one?

[00:45:16] Brenda: I wish 

[00:45:17] Jennifer: I did. I just actually, um, my colleague and I wrote a book, um, about mi for teachers in middle school. Uh, unfortunately it's only in Swedish right now, but, um, that's something that we take up a lot in the book. And that's, uh, yeah, school refusal. Or actually going to school, but not going to the classes.

[00:45:36] Jennifer: Like, yes. Yes. Um, so I mean, sure. I don't, again, don't have any quick fixes, but really conversations. I guess one thing, this is what I think about is that in our society, nobody has ever asked children or teens if they actually want to go to school. Right? Correct. And yeah. Right. You know, we have like, you, [00:46:00] you have to go to school that's like, you know, whatever.

[00:46:02] Jennifer: Yeah. So that's the first thing is like, and we're, if we're talking about supporting autonomy, that is not a decision that they've even said yes to. So that's the first thing that, but fine, they, they accept, okay, fine, I'm gonna go to school. But that doesn't mean they're gonna learn anything either. So these are the things I think we need to talk to kids about, like from an early, early age.

[00:46:25] Jennifer: Why do you go to school? Why do you think you do this? What's the point of going to school? Why, why should we learn things like, like working on that motivation right from the start? I think that the preventative side of it, right? Like trying to get back the like why of going to school, why is it important?

[00:46:44] Jennifer: So then fast forward many years, we have people that don't wanna go to school. Uh, and here's where I come back to the autonomy thing. It's like there's always a choice, even though it doesn't feel like it, it's a choice to go to school, um, and try and learn [00:47:00] something or a choice not to go to school and all, all these consequences to it.

[00:47:05] Jennifer: So there I would do the same thing. Pros and cons of going, pros and cons of not going. Um, if you look, you know, five years in advance or forward, like what are the pros and cons of going to school? Then and like, you know, like working on short term and long term consequences and stuff, and then the little package giving it back to them.

[00:47:28] Jennifer: What do you think? 

[00:47:30] Brenda: Yeah, and it's uh, what I experienced with my son 'cause he absolutely refused to go to school after his sophomore year, was that, uh, if I would have course. If I would've used this with him and really been curious about why he wasn't going to school mm-hmm. I would've realized that he didn't fit in the box that the school was asking him to fit in.

[00:47:53] Brenda: Yeah. Yeah. Like he would've benefited from a different learning environment. Yeah. But like you said, we never [00:48:00] asked. We just send him to school. Like you just stick him on the bus and you send them to school and you don't really think about it. Yeah. And so, yeah. Uh, I can imagine if we did use MI with this topic in particular, you might learn how painful it is for some kids.

[00:48:19] Brenda: Yeah. Especially our A DHD kids. Yeah. To go to school and be forced to sit in a chair for six or more hours a day. 

[00:48:27] Jennifer: Wow. 

[00:48:28] Brenda: Yeah. A lot of our kids are brilliant. And so, like my son, he could not go to school an entire semester and sit down and take the final and pass it. 

[00:48:36] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:48:36] Brenda: But they would fail him because he hadn't shown up.

[00:48:39] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:48:40] Brenda: So this in particular, I think is a situation where we would really benefit from listening to them. Mm-hmm. Why is this not working? 

[00:48:50] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:48:50] Brenda: What is it about school? Well, it's stupid. When am I ever gonna need to freaking know? Yeah. US history and blah, blah, blah, blah. But 

[00:48:59] Jennifer: yeah. 

[00:48:59] Brenda: Continued [00:49:00] to elicit from them.

[00:49:01] Jennifer: Yeah. Tell 

[00:49:02] Brenda: me more about that. Yeah, tell me more about that. 

[00:49:04] Jennifer: Yeah, and, and then, and not doing this whole like, well you must, you have to know it if you're gonna do this and that and the other thing, like if you're wanna go to university, you gotta know this and like, no. Exactly. Um, I think that's really important too.

[00:49:18] Jennifer: What are the reasons for them not wanting to go to school, but then also what are the reasons for them? What can school be the stepping stone? Four. Right? Like Right. And those are discussions that I think we can also have about school. It's like, yeah, okay. It must, it, it does suck that you're forced to do this.

[00:49:38] Jennifer: I didn't choose it. You didn't choose it. So what can we do with that suckiness? Now I can either just go do the motions, get my grades, and then go on and live a wonderful life. Or I can sit here and like buck, buck, buck, buck, buck. You're paid. Yeah. What, what's going to, what's gonna benefit you the [00:50:00] most?

[00:50:01] Brenda: Yeah. And again, be ready for them to choose what you may not want them to choose, you know? Yeah. It's, uh, it's hard. It's so hard. Well, this is incredibly helpful. Uh, run, don't walk to get Jennifer's book, lighthouse Conversations being a beacon for teens. Oh my goodness. What I love too is, um. You have like, uh, a website that's a companion.

[00:50:27] Brenda: So you've got some sample files of conversations. Yeah. Some cards that they can download. Yeah. To dark conversations. Yeah. Amazing. I love practical stuff like that because it's not helpful to have these theories that live up in our heads, like, we need the words. Mm-hmm. Like, give me the words. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:45] Brenda: So you did that, which is amazing. Oh, thank you. If you had, if you had one last kind of word of wisdom thought for a parent who might be in the, the midst of a really difficult time with their kid right now, what would you say? 

[00:50:59] Jennifer: [00:51:00] I would wanna say, um, you've got this and just breathe. Mm. 

[00:51:08] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:51:08] Jennifer: Back to the whole like take care of yourself.

[00:51:11] Jennifer: It's a stressful time. And breathe. You've got this. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you.