Think Like A Negotiator When Your Child Misuses Substances, with Cathy Cioth

 ABOUT THE EPISODE: 

In this episode Cathy and I discuss unique skills from the business world that can be applied to our relationships - especially one with a struggling teen or young adult who is misusing substances and has mental health challenges. 

I share a surprising learning I picked up from reading a book about hostage negotiation (you may even be able to relate to that kind of situation) and we dig into why it’s important for parents not to take your child’s actions and behaviors too personally. We tie this all into the CRAFT approach (of course) and I give a first hand account of how skills like SURF communication can be applied with anyone in your world, not just your struggling child.

EPISODE RESOURCES: 

• Never Split the Difference - negotiating as if your life depends on it, by Chris Voss 

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Speaker: It's not me, but I, I need to start to understand your motives. I need to understand what you are afraid of. I need to understand why do you think this is a good decision to do what you're doing, because only then can I start to come at this in a way that will make sense to you. Otherwise, we're speaking two different languages.

[00:00:26] Speaker: Welcome to Hope Stream, the podcast for parents of teens and young adults struggling with substance use and mental health. I'm Brenda Zane. I've walked this path with my own child's addiction and high risk lifestyle. Each week we help you gain clarity, learn new skills, and most importantly, find real hope in what might feel helpless.

[00:00:47] Speaker: You are not helpless and you're not alone anymore. Find more resources@hopercommunity.org.

[00:00:58] Speaker: Hey, 

[00:00:58] Speaker: Cathy. [00:01:00] Hey friend. We, we finally did it. We just decided to hit record because we have these conversations that we want to record for the podcast and it's hard to find time to schedule and all of that. So yeah, it really is. Here we are, especially now that we're 

[00:01:16] Speaker 2: on YouTube, because you know, we're on the YouTube.

[00:01:21] Speaker 2: We're 

[00:01:23] Speaker: the Skypey, the YouTube. Yeah, it's, uh, but I wanted to just get your thoughts on something because I heard there's a book called, um,

[00:01:37] Speaker: there is a book called Never Split the Difference. 

[00:01:40] Speaker 2: Okay. 

[00:01:41] Speaker: And it's authored by a guy named Chris Voss. He was a, um, like hostage negotiator for the FBI. Oh, 

[00:01:52] Speaker 2: wow. Wow. Okay. And 

[00:01:54] Speaker: so obviously he learned how to negotiate very well. So then he went on to write this book and it's [00:02:00] meant more for, uh, business people.

[00:02:03] Speaker: Okay. You know, who are negotiating deals and all of that. You know, I force myself to listen to podcasts that have nothing to do with mental health and addiction and all of that stuff just to like clear my brain. So I'm listening to this podcast with this guy, Chris Voss, who wrote this book on negotiation, and it was just fascinating to hear all of this.

[00:02:28] Speaker: And what I started realizing is, oh my gosh, all we're doing with our kids is negotiating. I had a feeling you were gonna go 

[00:02:40] Speaker 2: there. It is so true. It's just negotiation. A million. I mean, maybe that's why we're not millionaires because like I was not a good negotiator. I will say that. No, me neither. In the thick of it.

[00:02:56] Speaker 2: I really wasn't. 

[00:02:58] Speaker: But so that was one [00:03:00] realization that, okay, I think we could talk about, but also. He snuck in something that I thought was very smart, and he talked about, um, tactical empathy. And I thought, what the heck? I actually like rewound my little podcast machine. I was like, wait a minute. What? What did he just say?

[00:03:25] Speaker: And the host was like, they were talking about this tactical empathy. What he said is, well, when you're talking to, like, he would then go out and train other FBI hostage negotiators. Okay. And he, what he realized is that empathy was the number one most important I, you know, tool or Wow. Yeah. Because he had you as the negotiator, you have to be able to.

[00:03:58] Speaker: Understand where they are. [00:04:00] Like not put yourself in their position, but you have to understand where they are and be able to relate to them where they are. And he said, the reason we call it tactical empathy is because these dudes who are FBI hostage negotiators, they don't wanna hear about empathy.

[00:04:15] Speaker: That's so true. Why I can do that. They're like, that's sissies, right? Yeah. And I thought, you know, you know me, my mind is just blown. I'm driving and I'm like madly trying to take notes. Because I'm like, that's what we're doing. We're negotiating and we, we know there's a lot of parents who are like, I don't wanna deal with all this squishy, soft, crafty.

[00:04:39] Speaker: That's right. Invitation to change stuff. I just want, like, my kid just needs to get their act together. And I thought we need to start talking about like tactical empathy. Yeah, tactical negotiations. It's, you know, my son does mentoring and he's like, mama, all it is is [00:05:00] sales. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm in sales. I am just trying to sell you a different version of the life that you are living right now.

[00:05:07] Speaker 2: It's really true. I mean, all of this, 'cause you know, as humans we just wanna be heard, right? And I get it. There's bad guys that are holding people hostage. I mean, that is, but if you are really trying to communicate with someone and they don't feel like they're being heard. What did they do? Right? Yeah.

[00:05:27] Speaker 2: Ears off. They don't, they don't wanna hear, they don't wanna listen to you because they're, they're already going to that space where you don't get what I'm trying to say. Right. And oh my gosh, this is great. I really, it's really getting to that part, uh, you know, of how can we get to that level. Where we just really need to be quiet ourselves and ask, what is it that [00:06:00] my child really needs right now?

[00:06:01] Speaker 2: What is it that my child, where is he coming from that he is acting this way, that he is picking substances or whatever that is right? 

[00:06:12] Speaker: Yes. I mean it just, I don't know why. Love that. And, and it's funny, like listening to this guy, his voice is like, he's like got this hardcore New York kind of Boston accent, you know, he sounds like a hostage Gucci, right?

[00:06:30] Speaker: And I'm just listening to him talk about this and I was like, it just dawned on me that we really are, we just have to. Be able to, and I, and I actually had a podcast interview with a guest yesterday, uh, that we were talking about how you have to be able to separate a little bit and not take everything so personally, [00:07:00] and I was thinking about this hostage negotiations set up kind of situation and thinking, you know, the negotiator isn't.

[00:07:11] Speaker: So isn't thinking, well, you are doing this to hurt me. They're, they're like, you're doing this for some reason and I need to understand what that reason is, so then I, I can help you try to make a different decision, but I'm not taking it personally. And I thought that that was also really helpful to think if his parents.

[00:07:37] Speaker: My kid is not doing this to me because it is so hard when they're saying things and you feel like you're being disrespected and you feel like, wait a minute, you can't say that to me. Right. Or you can't do that. Right. You're breaking the rules. It's, it's just, it hits at a different level as a parent. So I, I think [00:08:00] maybe if we can imagine ourselves as that hostage negotiator, it's not.

[00:08:05] Speaker: It's not me, but I, I need to start to understand your motives. I need to understand what you are afraid of. I need to understand why do you think this is a good decision to do what you're doing? Because only then can I start to come at this. In a way that will make sense to you. Otherwise, we're speaking two different languages, right?

[00:08:26] Speaker: You know, Hey, I wanna pause for just a sec to talk about something that has been life changing for so many women who started right where you might be by listening to the show, if you're feeling the isolation, the exhaustion. Like nobody gets what you're going through. There is a place designed specifically for you.

[00:08:45] Speaker: The Stream is our private community for moms and female caregivers who are parenting teens and young adults through substance use and mental health struggles. And when I say private. I mean completely confidential. It is not connected to Facebook [00:09:00] or any other platform, or your business could become everyone's business.

[00:09:05] Speaker: What members love about this stream is that you can be as visible or as anonymous as you want. Some moms jump right into conversations and calls. Others like to read and learn quietly in the background. Both are perfect. It's not social media. It's genuine community focused on learning growth and breaking through the isolation that might be keeping you from moving forward right now.

[00:09:28] Speaker: Whether your child is in active use in treatment or early recovery, you'll find practical strategies and tools that actually help motivate healthier choices. Because we know you wanna see positive change in your family. Check it out@hopedreamcommunity.org. We would love to welcome you into this village of support and understanding.

[00:09:50] Speaker: Okay, back to the show. 

[00:09:53] Speaker 2: Oh, I love all that. And I, as you're speaking, I'm thinking, oh, that's that tool, that's that tool. That's, you know, all the [00:10:00] things that we teach right in, in the stream. And, but I really, really love all of that because you're right. I mean, you know, it, it's really tough when you are in it.

[00:10:11] Speaker 2: There's a lot of like this storm you're in, right? And, and you know, kind of not taking things personally and also. You know, this is also something we teach too, when to know when it's safe or not to proceed, right? When to use the, the pause button here. Yes, but, but you know, and I am getting ahead of ourselves right here, but you know, those are all, 'cause I know that some of you may be asking, well, hold on.

[00:10:37] Speaker 2: You know, he's yelling at me, I feel afraid or whatever. Right. You know? Right. We do teach ways to, and basically that is just to stop engaging right there. Um, yeah. But the topic of this that we're really trying to talk about is how do we get at a deeper level to really understand. From our kids and asking them, like you [00:11:00] said, you know, tell me what it is you need, you know, so that we can get to that level of compassion and understanding.

[00:11:05] Speaker 2: It's, 

[00:11:06] Speaker: yeah, that's really true. It, and it takes a lot of intention and you know, that self preservation to be able to put yourself in a mindset where you could try to separate the Velcro a little bit. And be really curious. That's right. And, and I, I just think maybe thinking about it from the perspective of this tactical empathy like this, if you are having a hard time with what might feel like these kind of softer approaches, I would say, let's think about it as.

[00:11:55] Speaker: A strategic negotiation. Like let's say you work for a Fortune 500 company [00:12:00] and you are going into negotiate a deal. 

[00:12:04] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:04] Speaker: You are not just gonna walk in there unprepared, you're gonna probably read this guy's book, right. You're gonna take a course 

[00:12:12] Speaker 2: ab Absolutely. Yeah. Like 

[00:12:13] Speaker: your company is going to train you in how to make sales deals.

[00:12:18] Speaker: And so I think that. We need to sometimes look at this with our kids as I need to be very strategic here and I need to get some training because I haven't been trained, like I'm not in, I'm not in sale. Like my husband does these huge $500 million deals with these huge Fortune 100 companies and I don't even get it.

[00:12:41] Speaker: So if I was gonna have to try to do that, I would need to get some training. Absolutely. Yeah. So. Instead of, I think because it's parenting and because it's our kids and because it's so personal and emotional and scary, we forget that we're just [00:13:00] teaching you and I'm talking about hopes. Right now we are just teaching you like sales strategies, negotiation strategies, like how do you communicate if I'm gonna walk in and try to sell $500 million worth of something to Starbucks.

[00:13:15] Speaker: I, I gotta know the right approach for it. I can't, that's right. Use the same communication skills that I use with my husband or my parents. Right. It's like, 

[00:13:26] Speaker 2: well, and I, I, I love all that and I think, you know, I'm wondering too, because I, I know I was in this a little bit is, well, I know my kid, I don't need to know more.

[00:13:38] Speaker 2: I know my kid, but I will say over this. Journey that we've had, you and I together with our own kids, like really, how much do you really know your child? Because I do think, yes, we knew our kids a lot when they were babies and toddlers, but really they do grow up to be their own folks with, [00:14:00] you know. How they look at the world and how they see things.

[00:14:03] Speaker 2: And by the way, lots of hidden trauma that we may not know about. Yes. And so it's really important. They may not even know about it. So it is so, so important. You are right to actually do your homework. Prepare as much as you can, learn a little bit about motivational interviewing, so you could actually ask the right questions so you know how you can get to that level.

[00:14:25] Speaker 2: Um, and I, I just think that, I just love, love this so much because I feel like when you really do address the needs of that person that you love, and try to figure out where they're coming from, I mean, at least try that makes such a difference. You know? I know I, I'm. I will raise my hand. I'm not the first person not to ever have a fight with my husband.

[00:14:50] Speaker 2: We do have fights and I, I know I feel so much better if I can't communicate what I need, that he takes the time to really sit down and we talk. [00:15:00] And sometimes I find out something new about what we were arguing about or you know, but it feels so great because I feel like wow, he actually cared enough to really get quiet and figure out what it is that I need and ask me the questions that you know to find out.

[00:15:14] Speaker 2: So. Anyway, love, love, love this. Tactical. Yeah. 

[00:15:20] Speaker: Say that again. Tactical. Well, tactical empathy. 

[00:15:23] Speaker 2: Tactical empathy is, but I think 

[00:15:24] Speaker: we can, we can approach all of it as being tactical. Yeah, and strategic versus soft and squishy and emotional and like, you know, because it does get to a point where you're like, something has got to change, right?

[00:15:40] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:41] Speaker: You get to a point where. Uh, like somebody asked me, I'm gonna be on somebody's podcast. And one of the questions, you know, they send questions ahead of time. Mm-hmm. And one of the questions was, um, like, what's, what caused the change in you or what, you know, what caused like a turn in your relationship with [00:16:00] your child?

[00:16:01] Speaker: And for me it was my therapist looking at me, sitting on her couch every week hysterically crying. I was just such a mess. And she's like, Brenda, what? Like, help me understand what is this kind of like despair that you are in? And I just said, I just don't have a plan. Like I don't know what to do and I can't go on like this anymore.

[00:16:28] Speaker: It had just gotten to a point where things were so chaotic and so bad that I would, I would just, I was losing it. And she was like, well, then let's create a plan. She helped me create a plan of what I was gonna do, and it was very craft-based. I won't go into it now, but, um, I think it does get to a point where, you know, something has to change.

[00:16:53] Speaker: Maybe you've heard about some of these tools and some of these strategies, but you're just like, gosh, that just sounds [00:17:00] so, I don't know, like, is that really gonna work? 

[00:17:04] Speaker 2: Is that really gonna work? It almost sounds too easy to work. Yes. And am I right? 

[00:17:11] Speaker: It's just, it is not easy, but it is simple. Like you don't need simple steps, degree in anything.

[00:17:18] Speaker: You don't need any certification. Like you can learn these skills. They are highly strategic. I mean, I even, this is a funny side note, but I had to bring something up with my husband this week and I was. I was like, how can I keep avoiding this conversation? And then I realized I'm not using my tools. So I created a surf statement, which if you don't know what a surf statement is, I love it.

[00:17:45] Speaker: Search the podcast. 'cause we talk about it all the time. And I, it made me feel so much better because I knew how to put things together in a way that was going to work for me and for him. And it did feel [00:18:00] very strategic and I was like, okay. I'm not just barreling into this, hoping that this conversation is gonna go well.

[00:18:07] Speaker: I've crafted it, I've put it together, and I felt a little guilty. Like he doesn't know that I'm doing this. Like he doesn't know he will now. Well, he listened to podcast, he will. Um, but I felt like right. It felt really good. I was like, he has no idea that I am using a proven. Yeah. System and framework to put together this request that I am gonna make of him to where I know it's gonna go well.

[00:18:41] Speaker: And it did. Yeah. Because I took a few minutes to put that together. So, yeah, I think if we think of these, uh, strategies and tactics, not to make it impersonal and not to make it, you know, some sort of like maneuver. [00:19:00] Just a way to look at a very difficult situation with your kid. Almost like you would go into a very difficult negotiation at work prepared and trained.

[00:19:15] Speaker: Absolutely. You're just doing 

[00:19:16] Speaker 2: your homework. You're doing your homework. 

[00:19:19] Speaker: Absolutely. You wouldn't bring it, you know, you 

[00:19:21] Speaker 2: will see results if you put a little bit of time into it, and so, gosh, I just love that. Yeah. Love that you brought up that book. 

[00:19:29] Speaker: That's great. Right. Never Split the Difference by Chris Voz.

[00:19:33] Speaker: Never Split the Difference. Okay. Yeah, I downloaded it, so I'm, I'm listening to it. So very, very helpful. Not just if you're an FBI negotiator. Very helpful in all aspects of life. I hope 

[00:19:43] Speaker 2: I never need one. I I'll just tell you that right now. But it is fascinating. You know, I, I have my love of true crime and everything else, so I'm gonna definitely check that one out.

[00:19:54] Speaker 2: Absolutely. Okay. Talk to you later. Talk to you soon. [00:20:00] 

[00:20:00] Speaker: Okay, my friend. If you want the transcript or the show notes and resources from this episode, just go to our website, hope Stream community.org, and click podcast. That'll take you to all things podcast related. We even have a start here playlist that we created, so if you're new here, be sure to check that out.

[00:20:19] Speaker: Also, if you're feeling anxious and confused about how to approach your child's substance use, we have got a free ebook for you. It's called Worried Sick, A compassionate guide for parents of teens and young adults misusing drugs and alcohol. It'll introduce you to ways that you can build connection and relationship with your child versus distancing and letting them hit rock bottom.

[00:20:44] Speaker: It is a game changer and it's totally free. Just go to Hope Stream community.org/worried to download that. You are amazing, my friend. You are such an elite level parent. It is an honor to be here with you and please [00:21:00] know you're not doing this alone. You've got this tribe and you will be okay sending all my love and light and I will meet you right back here next week.