Amber Hollingsworth: Put The Shovel Down When Your Kid Is Misusing Drugs and Alcohol

ABOUT THE EPISODE:

If someone in your life has an unhealthy relationship with drugs and/or alcohol, you likely already know my guest for today’s episode - Amber Hollingsworth. Amber hosts the wildly popular YouTube channel, “Put The Shovel Down,” with nearly 1 million subscribers. 

Amber and I sat down to talk about her addiction-riddled family of origin, and the best advice she gives family members from her two-plus decades in the field of addiction counseling. We cover what to do if parents aren’t on the same page about their child’s substance use, her thoughts on how to navigate a child and a partner or spouse’s addiction at the same time, whether she believes in “rock bottom,” and so much more. 

Amber is a passionate and delightful human who clearly cares about anyone struggling with substances (and their family members) - as evidenced by her 1,000+ free YouTube videos that serve as a lifeline for so many in this difficult position. 

You’ll learn:

• How Amber got started in the field of addiction counseling with a group of teens and zero experience
• Where to start first if your child and spouse are both struggling with substances
• Why Amber believes in “moments of clarity” rather than “rock bottom”
• The difference between a parent’s punishment and the world’s consequences

EPISODE RESOURCES:

• • Put The Shovel Down YouTube Channel
  • Family Recovery Academy - Amber’s Organization, Hope For Families

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Transcript

BRENDA

Hey Amber, welcome to Hope Stream. This is such a fun episode and I kind of can't believe we haven't done it yet. It's a little embarrassing, like how many years I've been doing this and you've been doing your channel, but I am so thrilled to have you. Thank you for joining me. Thanks for having me. Yeah, we are running in the same circles, for sure.

AMBER

For sure, for sure. And it's a pretty little circle, you know? That's right. Yeah. Like there's not a whole ton of people who wanna do what we do. People are always like, oh, but like you have your quote unquote competitors on the podcast. I'm like, uh, I don't think that exists in our world, because I know you're right.

BRENDA

There's just not enough of us helping parents in particular. And I know you help people, you know, other family members and also the people who are struggling. But anyway, welcome, thrilled to have you. Love your channel. Love everything you do. Um. Why don't we, I, I don't really have a lot on your background.

And I would love to just get a quick glimpse of that to give some, give everybody like a little grounding. And how in the world did you end up in this field? Because I, you know, I ended up through my son, but let's hear a little bit about you and then we're gonna dive into a bunch of stuff.

AMBER

Absolutely. So I got into the field that I'm in, which I'm, um, an addiction counselor. But I got into it in a, a non-traditional way. I feel like most of the people that do what I do, they got here because they're in personal recovery. And I did not get here that way. Um, I came from a very addicted family, as in grandparents, parents, sister.

Mm-hmm. Tons of stepparents. It was just everywhere. My mom died of methamphetamine related. Issue. Um, it was just everywhere. And I would love to say that that's why I got in the field because it doesn't, that just sound like a romantic story, but it's not. I actually, um, landed in the field and didn't realize how not normal that was until I was in the field.

And then I was like, oh, that's that. You know, which I know sounds like ridiculous, but when you live it every day and you haven't known anything else, you don't even think a thing about it. So. Right. Um, so that's my personal background. Once I landed in the field, one of the first jobs I got right out, I say when I was like a, a baby counselor, right outta grad school.

I had been a school teacher before, and the, I worked in this hospital, that's where I did my internship, and they hired me and they, because I had taught high school, they said, well, um, you've dealt with high schoolers. We want you to develop and run this program for teenagers that have drug problems. So I was like, you're like, that's literally the deep end, like the hardest possible work.

I didn't know it at the time. I know it now. It's like the hardest possible work ever. Yeah. And of course, because I was a baby counselor, I didn't want anyone to know. I didn't know what I was doing, so I definitely wasn't gonna let on, and I was like, yeah, let's do it. I got it. You know, bring it on, you know?

Love that. Then, and then I, I find myself sitting in a room with, you know, I don't know, eight to. 15 teenagers at a time at night, three hours at a time trying to figure out what to do with these addicted teenagers, most of which who had just come out of like the inpatient setting because something had really went bad awry.

Yeah. And they were sort of what they call stepping 'em down into this level of care. And then I had to figure out what to do. I had no, no idea what to do. When you go to counseling school, I know you think, oh, they teach you that in counsel. They do not. You get one class on addictions, which pretty much involves go to sit in on a couple of 12 step meetings and write a reflection paper.

That's about it. Okay. Yeah. So here I am in the room with these teenagers. I'm trying to act like I know what I'm doing, even though I really don't, don't want anyone to know that I'm trying to get 'em to show up because I, if they don't show up, then I'm gonna be found out that I don't know what I'm doing by my bosses, so I'll lose my child.

And so my whole mission was just to get these kids to show up mostly at first. And so I got pretty good at that, and then I got them to at least enjoy coming. I made it, the motto of our group was sort of like. We like you more than they like you. Meaning, um, myself and the other kids in here, we like you more than you're using friends like you.

'cause that was the competition, right? Oh, I like it. Sit in this room and talk to these people. Or am I gonna go hang out with my friends? That's tough competition, let me tell you. So, um, so that was the thing is, is trying to get these kids to see we're interested in them. We care, we're listening to them.

And, and that worked pretty good. And, and so I developed this mentor program because these kids, they were coming and they like coming. And then I didn't wanna see them go when they finished their time. And so I decided to let them keep coming for free as long as they wanted to, as long as they wanted to help other kids.

And they weren't like, causing trouble or, you know, being a bad influence. So then I had all these mentors coming and that, that was like, wonderful because they, I had already won them over, so they would just tell the new kids like, she's all right. You know, and then just made my job easier and easier. And so.

Even though I really didn't have a lot of knowledge about, you know, it wasn't like I had fancy addiction strategies or whatever, but the fact that these kids liked coming and then they all wanted to be mentors, they, they knew they had to get sober to do that, so they just got sober to do it. And the whole, the whole system like worked quite well, actually.

And I feel like that's what, that's how I learned that relationship is the key. The relationship is the leverage. It's not about telling people how to get sober. It's about. Building a relationship with someone to motivate them to wanna get sober. I, there's, there's tons of treatment out there that'll tell you how to do it, but the problem is the people coming into treatment don't wanna do it.

So we're gonna have to back up, you know, 10 notches to figure out how to get people to want to get sober. And so I kind of learned that on accident that way. But I'm so glad that I did because it served me really well. And not only does that work with teenagers, that just works with people in general. So that was my first big lesson in this whole thing.

BRENDA

I love that so much because I think you could have spent years and years and years with all kinds of fancy frameworks and theories, and not that those aren't helpful, I'm sure that they, they really are. Mm-hmm. However, at the most basic level, especially with teens. Is that relationship because that is so important to them at that stage of having somebody who accepts them.

Mm-hmm. Somebody who's gonna hang out with them and not lecture them. I'm sure you weren't giving them a lot of lectures. Right. And they responded. I think that's really, really insightful. Right. And especially with teenagers, the thing they're looking for is connection with peers, connection and, and a lot of times they fall into the drugs because that becomes a way to be accepted or have friends or fall into a certain group.

And so really for most. Teens, they're really chasing the, the peer connection more than the drugs. It's just that the drugs is the way to get there, and eventually they do them long enough that then it is a drug problem. You know? And then we have a whole nother level of issue. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know, for, especially for kids, at least what we see is the kids who have some confidence problems, maybe they've got some learning differences or whatever it is, that they don't just mm-hmm.

Kind of naturally like fit in with the cool kids, whoever those are. Right, right. That substances are the fastest and surest way for the most part. Yeah. Like, you're in like Flynn, right? There you go. You're in, right? Yeah. Some somebody says, Hey man, you smoke. And this person says, yeah man, I smoke. And now we're friends.

You don't have to have things in common. Other than that, you don't have like, it, it is the easiest way to find a peer group when you're. In middle school or high school. Yeah. Mm-hmm. For sure. Have you seen, 'cause you've been at this for a while, right? Like if I do the math right, about 15 years, is that right?

More than 20. I've been it a while. 20. Okay. So I'm curious what, 'cause I've only been in, I'm in like year six, so I'm a baby, I'm in the baby position compared to you. But what have you seen in those 20 years when it comes to young people? 'cause I, I am sure you see trends, like what has changed and what hasn't changed.

As far as like drug use is concerned or drug use, kind of just overall mental health or what they're struggling with or how they're re how they're responding to your services. Just, I'm, I just ask out of curiosity, because I've only been in it for like a minute. I mean, I feel like as far as young people and what they're struggling with and what they wanna talk about, I mean, I feel like that stays kind of the same, probably the same things you and I would've talked about as a teenager.

You, the, there's, there are drug trends that tend to come and go as far as what's popular and what's in, um, most of what I see in my office is alcohol, marijuana, and opiates. I mean, yeah, there's other things, but those are the big three. And with teens, the marijuana is huge. And the one interesting thing as far as like what's changed is, you know, used to, when I was first in the field.

You know, kids would come in and they'd say, marijuana's not addictive. It's not even a drug, blah, blah, blah. And that was before like the vape pens and everything. And one piece of good news is, well first of all, the addiction to marijuana has gone up. But the piece of good news is, is that they recognize that it's an addiction and that they are addicted.

And they can be addicted. Because now, because the vape pens, it's like people use marijuana all day, every day. Like, like you would smoke cigarettes. Yeah. I mean, it's a whole, so I rarely have. Um, a young person come and do the whole, it's not addictive thing. I used to have to deal with that spiel 10 times a day, so I'm at least grateful for that.

Right, right. Yeah. That, that's what we see too, is, is those three, and to some degree the stimulants like a DHD meds that are getting, you know, diverted from mm-hmm. The kid who's supposed to be taking them, but found out that he can sell them and now is making money off of his A DH adhd. Yeah. We believe it or not, I've only, in my whole 20 years, I've probably treated three or four people for stimulant addiction, kids and adults combined.

Now, I'll see that they get misused, especially among like teenagers and college kids. But I, I don't run into a lot of like, this is the addiction I'm coming to you for. Mm. Yeah. It's surprising. Surprising, but true. Yeah, it is. Well, and it's always seems to be, you know, a mixture, so it's mm-hmm. I'm sure it's probably for you too, just, it's rare to see somebody with one, just one instance.

Um, so, okay. Well that's, that's interesting. Yeah. And, and the, the struggles are probably the same, uh, even though it seems that we're, that we see a lot more anxiety and depression after COVID of kids, you know, who are sitting at home and, and doing all of that. But I think being a teenager is still being a teenager, like Right.

A lot of insecurity, there's a lot of self-doubt and all of that. And then now that's just magnified with social media. I mean, I can't imagine if I would've had Instagram when I was a teenager. I. I don't know, I think would've been broken. Well, now if you can do something bad or embarrassing, it never goes away.

Everyone sees it. Yeah. I mean, yeah. No, it's hard. It doesn't, it doesn't. Yeah. Well, unless you're on, is it, I think it's Snapchat that is still has the, the disappears, but if it's bad enough, people will, you know mm-hmm. Find it and track it down, so That's right. Yeah. That's super tricky. So, um, while I have you, I am really excited to tap into a couple of things related less to kids and teens and all, but really thinking about spouses and partners because mm-hmm.

We don't really do that at Hope Dream. Mm-hmm. We're really focused on parents, and I know that a lot of the parents are dealing with a spouse or partner who is struggling with addiction. And so this, I would imagine just magnifies the complication because you've got a kiddo who's struggling mm-hmm. Got a, another adult in the house who maybe has.

Paved the way. Right. Um, and, and you're trying to use a lot of these tools that you teach and that we teach to navigate that. And it just makes my head wanna explode. But you, I wanna talk about the invisible intervention. 'cause I know that's, you have really knocked it out of the park like we talk about.

Natural consequences and things like that. But you have really developed a program around that. So is that something, is that a tool that you would recommend for somebody listening who's like, I'm getting it at both ends, like, help me out. Yes. Yes. In fact, everything that we teach in the Invisible Intervention, um, they're not, I mean, you can use these techniques on helping anybody you have in your life that maybe is stuck in a bad pattern and needs change.

Like maybe your best friend's dating a jerk ball or something like that, you know, and you kind of want her to figure that out or something, you know? It is just, this is a way to interact with someone to help them see maybe difficult things and help them have the courage to address those things. We just use it for addiction, but you can use it, these skills that we teach anywhere.

Yeah. Any kind of situation like that. Mm-hmm. Yes. And, and a question kind of from a programmatic standpoint, like where do you suggest people start? If they have both a spouse or a partner in the home and a child, like what do you recommend? You just, are you like blanket, um, trying to help everybody? Or should you, like you're, it feels like they're the first responder and it's like, who do I go to first?

Like, what, what would you say in that situation? That's a really hard question because as a parent, I think your gut instinct is gonna be to protect your child, first and foremost, which I agree with. However, if you don't have ano the other parent on board, whether they the other parent has an addiction or not, just if they're not on board, you're not gonna get anywhere with this child because as long as the two parents are not lined up, the addiction will thrive.

So, as much as I hate to say it, I feel like you have to work on getting that other parent on board. Because you're just not gonna get anywhere with a kid. 'cause they'll just split you. They'll just play one of you against the other. You got good cop, bad cop, all the things, and you're just, I, I just don't know that you're gonna get anywhere when you have another parent that's not lined up.

Yeah. And they do know, it's like when they're two and they already know like how to manipulate and, well, I'm gonna go to mom for this and dad for that. Sure. We all know that. We know which teacher's gonna let us about this. I mean, that's natural, you know? Of course. Absolutely. What have you seen work well for, for trying to get parents closer.

Maybe they're not on the same page, but maybe they're at least in the same chapter. Yeah. Like maybe they start in two different books. Mm-hmm. Like, I'm in the hardcore, they just need to get it together. Mm-hmm. Get your act together, shape up, you know, and then you've got the other parent who's like, well actually I kind of like this motivational stuff and I really like, you know, natural consequences.

And how do you, what do you see that can start to help bring them closer together? What I find is when you have two parents, usually you, you have a good guy and a bad guy. And, and, and I don't mean one of you is good and one of you is bad. I just mean perceived by the child as like the ni good cop bad cop.

Yeah. You know, basically. And what I, what I like to reframe that as is one of you the bad cop is probably really good at seeing the truth. Like you have a radar, like nothing gets by you, you know what's up. Like you're not falling for that manipulation, whatever. Right? But that one is usually not good at interacting with the kid because they see through all that, they know exactly what's up and they just wanna call it out and argue with it and do all the wrong things.

So that one I say you're, you're, I'm calling you Backman, like you're playing outfield right here. And your job is to be in the know. Right. And the other one, usually the good cop. Usually has more denial about what's happening, but has better skill as far as interacting with the kid. Mm-hmm. So I try to say, okay, we're gonna be a team.

The, the one that interacts with the kid has to trust the other one's judgment. 'cause their judgment's probably pretty spot on. Okay. Like they gotta radar, you just need to trust them that they're, what they say is happening is probably happening. And the, that one has to trust the other one to, to be the front communication person.

And so it's, so we can use these two differing opinions as different teammates, like, you know, a catcher and a picture or whatever, you know, now we can see, okay, you have a skill and I have a skill and we're gonna teamwork the situation. I love the tag team idea because you're right. And the one who, the quote unquote bad cop, the one who's seen more of the truth.

Um. You totally nailed it. They are usually not the one that can then vary strategically and compassionately communicate because they're just, because their alarms are screaming in their head, like, and they're just like, ah. You know? Yeah. Yes. And that also really holds true if that parent is also struggling with some substance use or maybe a gambling addiction, because they are really looking at a mirror of themself.

Mm-hmm. And a that's painful. Mm-hmm. And it allows them to see it much more clearly. And I was definitely the one who was in denial Okay. Until I wasn't, and then mm-hmm. Right. Because it hit me flat in the face. Like when the police are in your living room, it's kind of hard to deny anymore. Yeah. But I was living in denial, like, oh, my son couldn't do this, or he couldn't do that.

Or maybe he's just drinking a little bit here and there. Mm-hmm. And my, I was doing it with an ex spouse was like, Hmm. No, there's, there's, you know, this is what's going on. Yeah. They're, they're, they're like, you need to wake up. Like this is, yeah. Yes. But it does, I think that's a great way because you can both honor each other's strength and say, this is your strength and I need that, and the mm-hmm.

And vice versa, so that you're not just, because otherwise it's just this power struggle and this battle and kids watching like, okay, while y'all are over there battling it out about who agrees with who and who doesn't, I'm gonna be over here doing what I'm doing. Doing. Right. Exactly. And it's, it's interesting in your story, Brenda, because almost always it's mom that's bad cop and dad.

That's a good cop in the family that really, because, because a lot of times dads have this, like, boys will be boys or like, right, I did that too. But what's interesting is sometimes what's happening there really is, is that the. The, the one that's getting the alarms usually isn't handling it very well to be honest.

You know, they're, they're fighting with the kid a lot about it and they're trying to control it, which is a natural reaction. Yeah. And, um, the other parent can see that that's not helping and that's not working. And so they try to soften the blows or mediate. And the way they try to do that with the other parent is to be like, you know, it's probably not that bad.

And so they're minimizing it, thinking they're trying to get the other parent's alarms to calm down and for them to interact differently. But that makes the other parent, but like, you don't get it, and then they just have more alarms. So it's just like understanding where each other's coming from and why this good cop, bad cop dynamic happens.

Because if you're not careful, then the good cop knows things and they won't tell the other one because it's like, it's gonna start a fight, it's gonna make it worse. Then we have secret keeping all the things. Yes. I, I am going to tuck that in my back pocket because it is so true. And. Not just with substance use.

So I think that's interesting. Right. Really, really good tip to remember. One thing that we see a lot that I would love to get your thoughts on is the kids. And, and this tends to be a little bit when they're earlier in their use, but even if they're experiencing some pretty bad consequences, the kids will say, the parents, I'm fine.

I don't have a problem. Mm-hmm. Everything's fine. Like, yeah, I got kicked off the soccer team, but I don't like soccer anyway. Or Yeah, whatever. I'm, I'm not gonna go to that college, but whatever. I'm just gonna go to community college. And you know, these are usually the ones that are using daily, like THC daily.

Mm-hmm. Really struggling. And the parents are pulling their hair out. 'cause they're like, how, how do you not see what, that your life is crumbling? Mm-hmm. And, and what I don't ever know is, does the kid really think there's no problem. Or can they acknowledge inside of them? Hmm. Yeah. There's some problems going on, but I, there's no way in hell I'm gonna admit to my parents that I've got a problem.

Like, what do you see with this? It's in the middle. It's in the middle. Like, um, there's some things about it that they don't like and they feel bad about, but they probably wouldn't say like, I'm an addict. Right. And whatever part of them does see an issue with it is definitely not gonna admit it to mom and dad.

So it's both. It's both. Yes. Yeah. That I think it's, um, the whole word addict. Mm-hmm. It's an interesting word. I would love to hear what you think about it. I don't like it. I never called my son an addict. I didn't like labeling him. However, what I find interesting is that many. People who are now in recovery will say, oh, I'm an addict.

Oh, I'm an addict. Through and through. Right. They, they use that term almost as a badge. Yeah. And I find it, I, I just don't use it. 'cause I just, I don't feel comfortable labeling people. How do you look at that word? That's a great question. It's sort of controversial topic, you know? Yeah. I, I do use the word, and here's why I use the word, when, when people are in recovery and they're using the word, they're not wearing it as a badge, they're reminding themselves that they can't manage it.

That's why they do that. They say that over and over meanings because when you have an addiction, it's constantly trying to trick you. I call it the, it'll be different this time if I, if I just do it this way. I just do it on odd days and not even days if I just, you know, stand on my head and you're trying to find a loophole.

And when people are resistant to calling themselves addicts. Family members wanna think, oh, it's because of stigma. It's not, the reason people are resistant to calling themselves addicts is because they know that that means they have to stop completely. 'cause everyone knows that. Like, if I'm an addict, that means I, I can't manage this and I gotta stop.

So when people are resistant to, to saying that most of that resistance is about not wanting to accept, they need to stop completely. So that's why you hear people say, I'm an addict or alcoholic, or whatever. Um, so often it's, it's, it's like a reminder of like, I have this issue and if I go back to it, it's gonna cause this problem now.

Um, that's just the way I personally feel about it. Some, sometimes people are resistant to it because of a stigma or something, but a lot of times they're not gonna say this to you, but secretly it's, they wanna say, I'm a problem drinker. Yeah. Which in their mind, really what that means is I can reign it back.

Hmm. Interesting. That is really interesting. Yeah. I can see that. I can see, I, I kind of relate it to like I'm a diabetic. Mm-hmm. And I have to, like, I, that's just the truth. Like, I am a diabetic, I need to take my insulin, or I need to eat a certain way, or whatever it is. Right. Um, so I really appreciate that because it's, it is such a controversial thing and I think those of us maybe who are not in recovery make it more of a controversy than those who are, I really think that's true.

Because the people that worry about it, or it is usually not the people that have it, it's the family members and it's like protective, which I get. But the other reason I guess why people that are in recovery don't have an issue with it, and why I don't have an issue with it is 'cause I don't have a negative stigma attached to my head with the word all my favorite people in recovery.

So when I hear the word or think the word, I don't. Have a bad thought. And when you're in recovery and all your friends are, you don't have the bad thought either. Right. If that makes sense. Yeah, no, it totally makes sense. Yeah. It's one of those things that I think, um, I think we can spend a lot of time debating it, and it's probably really not as much worth the time that we spent debating it as just letting people use whatever language feels okay to them.

But there is, you know, there's like courses that you can take on language and, you know, stigmatization, which is great. Mm-hmm. Um, if that's, if that's what you need. But anyway, I was just curious about that. And, and I'd be curious too, because I know that you, um, teach, I dunno if you teach the craft approach, like true craft, we don't necessarily teach like, uh.

Craft in a structured mm-hmm. Like, you are gonna sit down and learn craft. But we teach all of the principles. And I know that there's also one of those other, you know, like sticky words is rock bottom. Yeah. Like this whole, like, we have this love affair with these rock bottom stories. If you're watching intervention or you're watching whatever, and it's like, oh, that was a rock bottom.

Mm-hmm. How do you think about that? That's a great question. Um, I think waiting for rock, rock bottom is quite dangerous, actually. It's a mistake. Um, people don't have to hit rock bottom. They do have to get uncomfortable. You know, the, the, the. Cons have to start to outweigh the pros. That's true. There has to be some consequences, and I can talk more about this, but they need to be natural consequences because a lot of family members, parents particularly, they confuse consequences and punishment.

And so the easy way to think about that is if you doll it out, it's a punishment in their mind. If the world dolls it out, it's a consequence. And if the world gives a consequence and then you doll out something on top of it, now all they can see is the punishment. So we can talk as much about that as you want to, but um, you do need those consequences to be in place for them to be like, you know what?

This is a record for me. But the idea of hitting bottom doesn't really line up with what we know about addiction, because the definition is continuing to use or behavior despite the consequence. I mean, people lose everything. People lose their freedom. People are on the street, they lose their kid, they lose their jobs, they lose their spouses, they lose their dignity, they lose everything.

And they still use. So this idea of if some, if I make someone uncomfortable enough, they're gonna wake up. And I do think that, like I said, I do think there needs to be a level of uncomfortableness, but um, it, when people lose everything, it's really hard to bring 'em back from, like, for example, once someone does live on the streets, it's really hard to motivate them back 'cause they actually just get comfortable with it.

Yeah. So there's a level of consequence when it goes too. When it goes really far, it's just what happens is they just accept it. Like, they just accept like, I'm just an addict. Like this is my, this is who I am, this is my destiny. Like, I'm just gonna drink till I die. I'm just gonna like, they just roll with it if it.

So it's, it's in my mind the, the formula for helping someone get out of it is, is kind of a combination of the, the natural consequences, the uncomfortable met with, um, a level of hope and positive influence. And when we get that combination right, people are much more likely to make a different choice.

Yeah. I, I agree. I think rock bottom, what I tend to refer to as a turning point, because I've heard so many, and I'm sure you know, you, you're actually dealing with people who are the ones who are struggling, the kind of identified patient. Mm-hmm. So you probably have tons of stories, but I've just heard enough stories on this podcast of people who say, you know, um, I woke up and I realized I forgot to put my kids' presents out for Christmas and mm-hmm.

That was it. That was a turning point. So that doesn't feel like some dramatic. You know Right. Netflix worthy, right. You know, rock bottom, like Right. That's a turning point. And that that can come in so many different formats have, have you heard things like that? Yes. I call it like, it's right after something crappy happens, you have a moment of clarity and that could be something big or something small.

And what usually happens is you have a bunch of moments of clarity. You hit a bunch of little bottoms, you just kind of like scrape along the bottom for a while. Some of those things are worse than other things, but what happens is, is you hit a bottom and you think, oh my gosh, I'm never gonna do that again.

But you convince your, you know, you're like, I'm not gonna get a DUI again, but I can still drink and do this. So you're kind of figuring it out along the way, and then eventually you just hit so many of those little moments of clarity that you. That you have a bigger moment, not because something bigger happened, but because you know what?

This just don't work. I gotta try something else. Yes. Yeah. And, and a lot like in 12 Step they say like, I'm just sick and tired of being sick and tired. And really, that's the thing more than like this huge external consequence, it's more of an internal feeling of like two things. One, I can't, I can't control this very well, or at least not consistently.

And, um, I don't like who I am. Yeah. The bad things that happen to us, we can blame other people or situations or circumstances, but when we come to terms with, man, I just don't like who this makes me, then something changes. Hmm. That's really true. What, what you just said about blaming external things or people.

Mm-hmm. Especially with, uh, young people, you know, teens or college age kids, we see that. It's just universal. Right? And it's probably just universal with addiction, but, but the kids are really able to, it's my teacher's fault, it's my coach's fault, it's my parents' fault, it's my whatever's fault. Mm-hmm. How do you counteract that?

Like if you're the parent and you're listening and it's always somebody else's fault, it's always the whatever. Mm-hmm. And what do you say to that? Like how, what is a good response to a kid who is constantly putting it out on somebody else? This is, this is somebody else's thing. This is somebody else's fault.

Well, I got two pieces of that. There's a piece of it. If it's you, they blame, I have a whole, we can talk about that. But like, let's say you're just having a conversation. They've made a bad grade or whatever, and they're blaming someone else, not you. Um, the best thing to do actually is just respond with an empathy statement.

And because empathy, 'cause whatever they're saying to you, they're saying from a defensive standpoint, most likely, I mean, yes, they lack some insight, but mostly it's defensiveness. And like if they're complaining about their teacher, just say something like, yes, she is kind of a tough teacher. Or Yeah, I really had a hard math teacher too, man, I hated it.

And what happens is, is that creates a safety, it actually activates the part of their brain that lets them learn. And so when you don't like come at them and try to like get them to see the other side and you just, if you just see their side, then they, it's almost like a reflex. Then they start seeing the other points.

But I could have tried harder too. Like they may not take full and they may not admit it to you just because they don't want to give you the satisfaction, but they will think about their part of it. Yes. That's great. That's the classic motivational interviewing, reflection. Right? Or, or affirmation. Mm-hmm.

Which is so powerful. It's so, so powerful. And I, I do that all the time. Like in my just regular adult relationships when somebody's Oh, so unfair. It's like, I know. Sucks. Yeah, it just, right, it takes all the air out of that defensiveness, that wanting to come back. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So that's, and it's so hard to do in the moment, right.

When you're so, especially with a kid, oh my gosh, it's so hard. You don't feel a responsibility to teach your friend these lessons. You feel a responsibility to make sure your kid, you know, turns to a responsible person or whatever. So there's this way, bigger urge. I mean, yeah. It's tough. It is. And I think also we think that if we do that, if we come back with, uh, a reflection or affirmation, that that means that we are agreeing with them.

Oh yeah. I'm letting 'em get away with it. Yeah. Like I have to hit back with that. Like, I have to come back with my knowledge and well, no, I, this doctor said this or this, you know, like, we think we have to come back with an answer. And it's just so hard to not do that. Which makes me wanna ask you about ego.

Mm-hmm. Like ego and shame, because I think those are things that maybe don't get talked about enough. Like we have all these tools and we have motivational interview and we have craft, and we have all these things, but when, like I think of my son, he had so much anger and so much pride. Like I am the best Xanax dealer in all of Seattle, whatever, like mm-hmm.

You know? Yeah. Yeah. Like he took a lot of pride in what he was doing and he was like, mm-hmm. I can handle it. I can, you know, I can do all of this. And I don't know that he would've ever kind of been able to dismantle his ego enough to say, mom, I need help. Oh, yeah. Right. And at the same time, I'm sure he was feeling a lot of shame because he knew what he was doing.

Talk to me about that. Like I, I just, we, I just never really talk about that very much. It's, it's complicated because you have the ego and shame of the person, the, your a kid in this instance and your own ego and shame. What you're, what you're fighting against is your own ego and shame mostly as a parent to feel like, you know, like mom guilt.

Like I have to, like, if my kid is doing something bad, it means I'm a bad parent. And, and all of that. Our own ego and shame is the thing most likely to prompt us to maybe make a less effective response. Yeah, yeah. Honestly. And, and, um, once we can understand that it's our defense mechanisms mixed with their defense mechanism, you understand how that works psychologically.

You can kind of like sidestep it a little bit, like when you're talking about that. I see a lot of young, or have seen a lot of young people that are like that and, and what I'll say to them, I'll say. I'll say you, you are, you're like a badass entrepreneur. Yeah. You are meant to be a businessman. Like, I like the way you think.

And then I'll say, I'll say, this is the right business. Like, and I've literally with kids like sit down like, okay, how much do you make selling this week? Do you drive? They come to you, do you have to answer your phone all the time? Like, are you on call? And like, we like run the numbers. I love it. And I'm like, okay, but you know, you're gonna get like arrested a time or two.

You know, you're gonna get like somebody's gonna steal your stuff a time or two. Like let's put all this in our ROI here. Okay. Like, is this, is this the best business or could we make more money selling Nikes or could we make more money doing something else? And so I just kind of, I honestly sort of play into it and just see what they're saying because like when you're telling that story about your son, I'm thinking if you sit moms, I'd be like, dude.

You're crafty, like you're ambitious. I like it. Let's make some money. You know? Yes. I, I could just see it. You need to come out with a, with an Amber's ROI calculator. You're writing them through, but like, okay, but your legal defense is gonna cost this much, and then you're gonna miss, you know, two to three years while you're in jail.

So then you gotta make sure you have a backup entrepreneur that's gonna run your business while that's, that is genius. I love that. Yeah. I'm like, okay, they're paying you. 20 bucks for this weed, you're driving it to them. Like, okay, hold on, hold on. You, you know, do you know how much gas costs right now? Do you have this?

Send your QuickBooks? No. You know, like Yes. Well, and what, what I do know is that our kids who get themselves into this are usually brilliant mm-hmm. Over functioning, right? They, they are usually highly gifted in some area. So they, they've got this like intelligence that is surpasses where they should be.

And also kind of a restlessness of like, like school is boring. Like everything's boring. Especially if they have a DH adhd. And so they do end up in these situations and we always say, man, if we can just channel that in a better direction, imagine how successful you're gonna be. And that's exactly, that's what I do with.

Young people and adults, as I say, you know, when they, we talk about addictive personality disorder, I'm like, really what that is is a DD. And I like to call it like entrepreneurial personality disorder like, or like successful personality because you're really driven and you're really like, I'm not gonna give up and you can solve any problem to make it happen.

You're just misusing your superpower. That's the way I think about it. Like like, man, if we took that and put it over here or into this, into that, wow, that would be really cool. Like think how successful you'd be and you would like yourself for it. And right now you don't really like yourself and you might not end up in jail 'cause that would suck.

Right. Or end up in jail again because, or at least you would be arguing with your wife or your mom, you know? Yes. Yes. It's, it is so true. They are so brilliant and, uh, it is just so frustrating when they're young and, and there's some degree of just letting that prefrontal cortex develop. Right. If you can keep 'em alive long enough, like keep 'em alive until they're 25, 'cause that's mm-hmm.

When things start kind of turning up there. Right. But it, but it also turns slower because it's been really, you know, dampened by the substances. And even, I remember when my son was like 21 or 22, if I'd have met him, I really would've thought he was maybe like 18 or 19. Mm-hmm. Because that whole developmental process got, got halted.

Right. And so. So I think that's also really confusing for parents. Like, what should I be expecting? You know, my teen, maybe finally at 20, they're like, okay, I'm not gonna be, I'm not smoking every day. They're doing really well. But then it's like there's catch up to do and then the parents don't know like, how much should they be doing?

So how do you kind of gauge like what should they be doing as they're in that early recovery stage? Because I think maybe as parents, we have much higher expectations than we should. Yeah, I think there's, I would put that in two categories, like having a reasonable expectation of their, them emotionally and psychologically, like where they're at, like their coping mechanisms, their responses.

And then also like a reasonable expectations around like responsibilities. Because, and, and this isn't just with young people, but like when someone finally does come outta addiction, the family's usually been holding together all their responsibilities for so long. Yes. And you're just like, okay, it's your turn and you need to drop, you should watch the kids and you need to like blah, blah, you know, and we're ready because they should have been doing that for years and they haven't.

But emotionally and psychologically, they're not there yet. And I know that's not fair. Everything about having addictive level one is not fair. So we'll just add it to the list. Okay. Right. That's also not fair. You know, it's like I've been paying it for this long, you're telling me I keep paying it a little longer.

I'm like, have to keep it a little longer, right? Mm-hmm. 'cause given this person, I like to think of it like, um. Like they're juggling. So you wanna throw them one ball until they juggle that one really well. And then you also wanna handle them, give them one more, and then they get those two going really well.

And then you wanna give them one more when they're ready. And then instead of throwing it all at them, like you have to have a job pay rent. You gotta go to 90 meetings in 90 days. You gotta call your sponsor. You gotta be polite to your dad and I, you gotta clean up your room. You need help with the dishes, you need mow the yard.

And I get that, that that's probably what they should be doing. But if the goal is to get them to be able to manage all those things, we need to give them like one, one at a time. Yes, and and they'll get that and they'll, they'll catch up way faster than you think. The emotion, the emotionality catches up quick.

Like it's not, like if they're stuck at 16 and they're gonna have to take day by day to get there, they'll rapidly catch up to their age group. I love the juggling analogy because it is so tempting to throw five balls at them and then question, well, how come you can't just juggle all five of them right off the bat if you've never even juggled before?

It's like, well, I don't even know what, like, how am I supposed to be doing this? So that's really helpful. I do wanna go back. You talked a little bit about natural consequences, the world's consequences versus parents' consequences. Mm-hmm. Which are punishments. Mm-hmm. Could you talk about that a little bit more?

Because this is an area that is so incredibly difficult. It sounds so simple on paper, and it is so difficult to execute, especially around. The thing that we see a lot is, my kid is smoking in my house, or my kid is vaping in my house and they keep bringing vape pens in and they keep bringing, you know, I, I'm finding alcohol bottles under their root, under their bed or whatever, and mm-hmm.

They're trying to figure out what is a natural consequence for that and, and what if I allow a natural consequence and they get arrested, right. And they're only 17 and now they're gonna have a record. So I would love to get your thoughts on all of that. These are really, like, like you're saying, they're really hard decisions that almost any parent is facing if they're in this situation.

Um, as much as possible, I think you need to let it play out naturally, which is against your instincts. Like, for example, a really common one is if I find drugs in this house. I'm gonna call the cops or something. Okay? First of all, I don't believe you. You're bluffing. That's what I would say to the parent.

I'm like, you're bluffing and don't bluff because you're gonna get caught on that bluff. Yeah. Don't do it. I says, and secondly, if you did call the cops because you found the drug, they will not learn the lesson from that. They will literally, for the next 10 years, be throwing it in your face. I cannot believe you call the cops on your own son.

Like what kind of mother does that? That's the only lesson they'll learn. If you doll it out. They don't learn the lesson, they just blame you. They just see you as the bad guy and you're the problem. And it, it distracts 'em from seeing the real problem. So there are some safety boundaries that you absolutely have to put in place.

Right? But I would steer clear of if I find it in this house, like, um. In my dealing with teenagers, they all also smoke cigarettes at the time. I guess these days it would be more vaping or whatever. That was always the thing and And even when I did it in treatment, I did not argue with kids about smoking, nicotine.

All of them 15 years old, be out front in the treatment center, smoke cigarettes and I'm like, y'all wanna deal that? I'm not dealing with that. And I would tell the parents up upfront, I am not gonna argue with a kid about that. I'm gonna save all my arguing in front of other stuff. Yep. Now, if it's cigarette smoke in your house and you don't want it in there 'cause it's like smelly, then you need to say, I don't want you to smoke inside my house.

I feel like that's the kind of a reasonable rule. 'cause I feel like that's more your side of the street. But if you're trying to tell yourself, I know my kid is addicted or husband or anybody, and I know they're addicted to substance and you think that they don't have it in your house, you're lying to yourself.

It is in your house because if you're addicted you have to have it all the time and it has to be close. Yeah. Best case scenario is they have it in their car, in your driveway and they think they loophole it, but it is there. So as far as like the rules that you set, set as few as possible because then you have to back 'em up.

You have to power struggle about it. Like there are some, you have to set, I'm not saying let them do whatever, but this whole like trying to set all these rules and then you have to give a punishment for it. You, because you said I'm gonna do this if you do that or whatever. If a kid makes a bad grade, the bad grade is the consequence.

If you yell at them for the bad grade, now they're just focused on the fact that you yell at them or you took their Xbox away or whatever it is that you did. Right. Right. Now, one that is the most complicated I think for parents is driving This. One is, this one is complicated. Ooh. Yes. Right, because. Uh, if you have a, a kid that's struggling with substances and you're knowingly letting them drive your car or their car that's in your name and it's on your insurance, I have seen that come back on parents.

Mm-hmm. So I do feel like it's appropriate to say if you are not passing drug screens consistently, like you're not driving my car. Right. Because it is not on my insurance. And that's for liability reasons. Mm-hmm. I've seen parents get sued for that more than once, especially when it's like a known history and I've had parents whose their kid is like, wrecked four cars in the last six months and they're still letting their kid drive, you know, and if they hit someone, that's gonna not be good.

So yeah, I would make a consequence around that as far as like the driving, but the rest of it, it's, it's better if it comes from the world. Absolutely. And that, that kind of leads me to a question that I had around. High functioning. And I know this is usually a term that's applied to adults, like Oh.

Mm-hmm. She's a high functioning alcoholic. I think we also have high functioning teenagers and college age kids who seem to be able to use at a dangerous level, and they somehow skirt consequences like magic. Yeah. And so that's where I think sometimes the, um, and you know, we have a lot of parents who, they sit their kids down and they say, if I find it in the house, I'll just throw it away.

Like, I'm not gonna call the cops, but I'm not having it in my house. It's illegal, whatever it's mm-hmm. And it seems like that can go on for a really long time. Sometimes. Like I know my son, I was like, when is this kid gonna get arrested? I know, right? I know. Because the reason isn't really because they're so high functioning.

The reason is, is because the systems, schools and law, they get so many chances. Yes. I've got so many parents, why can't they fail a class? Like they can't fail a class. The teacher won't let them fail. They've literally come to school two days the whole year, and the teacher fell. You're like, are you serious?

Yeah. You know, they get pulled over and let off and pulled over and let off, and you're like. What, and it's a problem because you keep telling 'em, you're gonna fail that class. You're gonna get a DUI and they just, and then they don't off because they're teenagers. Right. It's so frustrating. Yeah. Because it does take way longer for those consequences to kick in when it's a young person than you think or want it to, and then you look like a liar, you know?

Because you've been saying Yes. Yes. And how, what about, again, thinking about the parents who are listening who have a spouse or partner, or maybe even a sibling, a parent, and that person seems to be so high functioning, like they're using at a, at a level that is causing some damage, like in the relationship or whatever, in their parenting abilities.

But they're still thriving at work and they're still like, they seem to not really be having a lot of consequences. Are there things that you have found that. I, I feel like it would be like ninja level natural consequences. Like what are things that you could do that maybe you don't think about that would at least start to help them see like, this actually is a problem.

Like, yes, you're, you know, killing it at work and you're still working out and you don't seem to have any health problems. Like there's so many people like that. Mm-hmm. But there's still damage being done. Like how do you deal with that? Yeah, especially with an adult. 'cause adults really can be quite high functioning and they can function in every area of life except at home because you can kind of put on your mask and keep it together during the daytime or whatever, but you can't keep it together all day until your spouse is gonna see it first.

And that's so frustrating because you see it, no one else sees it. You try to tell other people, they don't believe you. It's just this whole thing. But, um, the, the truth of it is. Is deep down inside, there's something they don't like about it. There's some consequences. They feel like they're embarrassed about it, they're ashamed of themselves about it.

They have let themselves down. They have bad self-esteem. Now they may, you may not see those and they're probably not gonna talk to you about those. And so you feel like there's no consequences, but there are. And when you can create enough trust with someone, they'll open up with you about that. And then you want to nurture those because those are their reasons to stop and they're much more powerful.

Like what you said again earlier about like, I forgot to put my Christmas presents out. That is very powerful. And that's this like, oh my gosh, like I can't believe that like, you know, this is so important as a mom and as a family. And that stuff hits home more than anything else. And that's usually already in there, right?

If, if you can be the right kind of place, people will start to like admit that to you. Out loud. Mm-hmm. That's really interesting. 'cause I think I always am a fan of, you know, work on the relationship. Work on the relationship. Mm-hmm. So while this is going on and they seem to have nine lives and they never get the, you know, they never get arrested, they never failed the class.

Especially during COVID. Like they were literally just passing kids just for showing up on Zoom, like one day it was so bad. Mm-hmm. But while that's going on, trying to focus on the relationship like you just said, so that when they do have that moment of like, oh, I really don't feel good about this. Like this is, this is just terrible.

That now you are not the enemy. That you are an ally that they'll be willing to talk to. So important. 'cause that day will come, we always just want it to be today. Mm-hmm. Like, could it just be today? Mm-hmm. But if it's not, then at least work on the relationship. Right. And you can speed it up by working on the relationship.

'cause actually that's already in there. Mm. They're just defensive towards you. And the more you get them, you never wanna say something to somebody that's gonna make them say something back to you that you don't want 'em to think like you're an alcoholic. And then they think, no, I'm not. I make a bazillion dollars not gonna work every day.

And everyone loves me. Never say something to somebody that's gonna put them in a position to defend the other side. Right. Even think the other side. Right. Right. Because you, they're, it's, they're convincing themselves every time they say it or think it. So we don't wanna help them do that. Yes. That's a good psychological trip right there.

Yeah. And, and, um, one of the things you can do to help build that credibility is you're trying to get this person to see the problem. And so you're, you're trying to show them how serious it is, and if they're a functioning person or it's not affecting everything, then. That's not gonna ring all the way true to them.

So one of the most effective things you can do is just acknowledge that like, look, you gotta work every day. You make you make a good living. You're still exercising, you're doing all this. I mean, you definitely not way addicted like some of these people, but is it affecting anything? Is there anything you don't like about it?

So just acknowledge it. Mm-hmm. When most of the time we wanna steer away from that, but that's what they're thinking. And then it, you lose credibility with them because they think you don't get it. You don't see me. You're just focusing on this one negative thing. And, and you lose credibility when you do that.

So if you know they're thinking, yeah. But then just go ahead and say all the Yeah. Buts. Hmm. I love that. That's true. You don't have a good argument against it, so just roll it. Right, right. Any other little tricks for speeding things up? Because I know, especially with young people in Fentanyl. This is what we see is the parents are frantic because it is, you know, it's not like, like alcohol takes a bit longer, right?

Mm-hmm. By the time you get addicted and it's really, you could be in your sixties by the time you're really impacted, the fentanyl can kill you any one time, right? Instant. So, any other tips for speeding up? Uh, I guess, what do I wanna say? Like, having them recognize that this is a problem in being willing to think about getting some help.

That it's, it's really hard with fentanyl and especially with your kid, because some things safety-wise, you just have to address no matter what. And it, it may slow things down for them figuring out, but you have to as a parent. So I, I get that. I wanna acknowledge that first. Um, one of the things we wanna do, if it's something really serious like that, as we wanna say, this can kill you.

And we think, wow, that's gonna get their attention. But it really doesn't work very well. And the reason it doesn't work very well is either they're so young, they just don't really believe you. You can't really scare kids 'cause they haven't had enough bad things happen to them yet. So they're just like, whatever, I can handle my stuff.

Like they just don't believe you. Yeah. Or they're so far in it that they don't really care because far in substance abuse is just this, what I call like passive suicidality, which is like, I don't really, uh, they live really recklessly and they don't really care if they wake up or not. So the, so the threat of like this could kill you doesn't really, I don't see that make much of an impact.

Right. And you would think that would be like the ACE card, but it really isn't. The ace card, find what their thing is. Maybe their thing is that their girlfriend's mad at 'em 'cause they're doing it. And you may think, well that's a dumb reason. You should be concerned 'cause you flunked outta school and you could kill you.

It doesn't matter what is their thing. And, and grow and nurture that seed. They have a thing. Find it. You know, it's, it's, it's frustrating 'cause it's usually their thing is something you see as dumb. Like, like I have alcoholic men. They're like, it's really putting some weight on me. I'm like, yeah, you, you would feel a lot better.

Like, yeah, you probably lose some weight. Like, whatever they think, even though they've like, lost their marriage or, or whatever, you know, whatever their thing that they can see, find it and nurture that because they, that's their motivator. Yes. And they're gonna respond to that faster than they're gonna respond to anything that you have to say.

And with young people, if they're in a relationship and the relationships against it, that's big leverage. Oh, I like if the boyfriend or girlfriend doesn't like it, man, that's like, I, you wanna turn that one? If they, if the boyfriend or girlfriend's in it, you're, you're in trouble. Mm-hmm. I mean, you really are in trouble.

Yes. And that is very common, right? They find somebody who also likes to use or they meet in rehab and then they go back out and mm-hmm. I know that that is, I mean, I hate to say it, but that's like almost I, so you can get someone off of heroin faster than you can get 'em outta a bad relationship. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. And that sucks. Yes. And the thing I say to parents about that too is that those relationships. Usually don't last too long. Right, right, right, right. So yes, it is terrible. And it just keeps them so chained to that substance and to that person. However, those, those relationships don't tend to be the ones that last 40 or 50 years.

Maybe it would, but you know, at that level, you're talking weeks or months, because especially not with a young person. Yeah. Right. It's chaotic. And, and that's a good point. And the reason that that is, is because when you're an addict, you're not a very good person to be in a relationship with, even to another addict, because your loyalty is to the substance and somebody that's like intoxicated all the time.

They just don't make the best partner. So if you're in that situation, which is the best situation, not only do you, does your kid have this, but they're dating someone, whatever you do, don't go against the other person. Right. Because they will hang on forever. So whatever you do, do not. Align against that other person.

And even when they come and they have the first complaint, play it cool. You listen to them, you let 'em talk about it, you validate it, but do not jump in there and add anything to it. 'cause they're gonna get back three or four times. Now you're done playing your guard. So don't do that. It's really hard, but don't do it so hard.

You're just like, oh, I just wish you could see it. But yes, it takes so much control, so much. Um, and, and this leads to me to my last question 'cause I know I have to let you go, but it does take so much control and what I'm always telling people is, in order to have that level of control, you have to be taking care of yourself.

And so I wonder, because I know how difficult this it is to be in a, in a role and I'm not even supporting people who are, you know, actively using. What do you do for yourself to keep yourself in a position where you can show up every day and do this and all of your videos and all of your counseling and running a business and I believe you're a, a parent and mm-hmm.

Like how do you do it? Uh, probably the most helpful thing for me is, is having my expectations right in my head so that I'm not always upset or disappointed. Or like most addiction counselors, the average length is five years in the field, which is really unfortunate because it takes longer than that to be qualified to be in the field.

So, you know, they don't last very long. And the reason is 'cause you, they get burned out because they're trying to help people who go back out over and over. And then you, you take it personal or you feel like, well, they don't even want help, or you feel like it's a reflection of you. And when you get, like, my expectation about helping people is especially young people, I, I don't try to tell myself like, I'm gonna tell this person these magic things and they're just never gonna drink or use anything again, my main goal is to make sure they have a bad, I mean, a good experience with me.

That's my number one goal. And I can control that to some degree. Yeah, because, um. If they at some point in the future need help, they're not gonna be scared to either come back to me or go see someone else. So understanding, like if I'm dealing with someone who's in complete denial, then my goal is just to try to get them to think about maybe they have a problem.

So don't set yourself up for, I've gotta make this thing happen and you won't be so dysregulated all the time. Like, you'll feel more in control. That, and then for me, I've just, I sort of trust the process because I've seen it so many times that it, it's a little easier for me. And plus it's not my kid, you know, when it, when or if it's ever my kid, I, I understand that's completely different, but I've seen people come out of this over and over and over again, and I see the stages people go through.

And so I kind of know, like even when I see someone in a bargaining stage, that doesn't mean they're not gonna make it, it just means we're, we're on this step and not this step. Like that helps me too. But it's mostly about your expectations. Yeah, that's a really, really helpful point because I do think that we tend to see the top of the mountain, and we don't remember that there's lots of zigzags that go up the mountain, and so I love that thought of like, let's, let's point here.

Mm-hmm. Getting them to just think that maybe there's an issue instead of going for the top of the mountain, which is like, oh, they're sober, they're, you know, back in college and they're married and they have a golden dole. Like they're, we just, we like make the craziest expectations and forgetting that there's, we want it to happen now.

That's our big, and we get ourselves frustrated, you know, like if, if you're dealing with someone who's in denial and does not think they have a problem and you're talking to them about going to treatment. You are missing the mark and you're running your credibility and they think, you know, they're thinking I'm this idiot, or whatever.

So understanding where you're at and where's the next level point? Like when I started, I just want you guys to show up. And when you keep it simple like that, it just, you, you tend to say more level headed about it. Yes. And pizza usually helps in a time like that. Like Right. You gotta do what you gotta do.

Right. Right. Your pick your battles, you know, like, yeah. All these things help. It's about expectations. 'cause when you get let down over and over and over again, you just deteriorate. You know, you just fall into a mess. Mm-hmm. What would be a word of, uh, um, either advice or a thought that you would like to leave with a parent who's really in the thick of it right now and just doesn't, doesn't see how they're gonna get through?

What, what I would say is do not listen to all those people who give you all those terrible statistics, and one in 10 people beat this thing. That's ridiculous. I see people beat this thing every single day. Even ones you would think, oh, this one's not gonna make it out. Like sometimes those, it's severe enough that they actually recognize the problem.

So just don't, don't get negative and don't listen to people who are negative and don't listen to the people who are just like, they're gonna have to hit this bottom, or they're just, they have to run it for themselves. It is just because it makes you feel hopeless. And I see people beat this thing every day.

Thousands, millions of people beat this thing. And the reason statistics look bad is 'cause like they go to treatment and they may relapse after that, but that person got, gets sober two years later. They're not counting that in the statistics. Exactly. It takes several tries. Okay. Yes. That is always a beef I have because you can't.

Mm-hmm. It's the hardest number to pin down. Right. Because it's a moving target. So Yeah. Yeah. When people tell you, I'm like, well how did you get that number? How are you measuring it? Like, yeah. Who answered the phone and gave you the information? I don't know. Just like, yeah. Yeah. Well, Amber, thank you so much.

This was such a fun conversation. Loved it. And thank you so much for your work, all your videos, we just love them. Um, I'll link in the show notes, obviously to your program and just tell me really quickly so that people know, because I think everybody knows you for your YouTube channel, but I don't know if people know you have a counseling practice where you're actually working with family members and with.

With people who are struggling? Yeah. Well these days, even though I'm a counselor, my colleagues are counselors. We really just do coaching and consulting. Okay. Um, because a lot of times what we do is families who are in this, they call, so they say, this is my situation. What do I say? What do I do? And we really help.

It's really kind of, really is just sort of a consulting coaching. So we do that. You can find us on our website, which is Family Recovery Academy online. But honestly, the best place to start is YouTube. Yeah. There's a million videos there. It's totally free. Start there. It's amazing. I mean, I don't know how, how many, do you even know how many videos you have up there?

It's more than a thousand. I know that. It's crazy. I haven't looked a while. It's crazy. It's so amazing. And for every situation. So we'll link to those. Um, and we, we definitely link to those in our community and we're like, oh yeah, the this one, you gotta watch that one. So thank you for the work you put into the world.

I appreciate it so much. Same. Thank you Brenda.