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When Your Child Says, “No Thanks” to The Faith They Were Raised With, with Heather Frazier

• Brenda Zane, Heather Frazier • Season 6 • Episode 290

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ABOUT THE EPISODE:

Substance use and recovery can shift every aspect of a young person's life - even the faith that has been deeply ingrained in someone’s upbringing.  Parents often have visions and expectations of their child's lives, and for parents of faith, that usually includes a life of shared values and traditions.  So what happens when our kids choose differently?

My guest today, Heather Frazier, only developed ideas about this when her own children not-so-politely exited the family's religious practice. Her advice has striking similarities to our advice to parents of kids struggling with substance use: maintaining healthy, open relationships while learning to let go of expectations and abandoning a false sense of control.

In this episode, Heather explains the "dangerous two-part cocktail" of unhealed wounds and ego. We discuss the fullness of God's plan for our family's lives, how looking inward can change our perspective, and how a distorted view of traditional Christianity may contribute to the feelings of being not-enough that often fuel substance misuse.

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Heather:

The divine that I know is very loving, all knowing and is never gonna snap his fingers and say, well, I don't know what to do with you now because you, you ruined my plan. Right there. There's no way that the divine, I know we, that we can ruin the plan.

Brenda:

Welcome to Hope Stream, the podcast for parents of teens and young adults struggling with substance use and mental health. I'm Brenda Zane. I've walked this path with my own child's addiction and high risk lifestyle. Each week we help you gain clarity, learn new skills, and most importantly. Find real hope in what might feel helpless. You are not helpless and you're not alone anymore. Find more resources@holingcommunity.org. Hey, friend, thanks for coming and hanging out with me today. I hope you're breathing. I hope you've had some water today. I have an episode that I know is going to touch your heart deeply today. If you have a child who's made a different decision about their personal faith or religion than the one they were raised with, it's a topic I've never touched on before. So I was thrilled when I met Heather Frazier. At an event that I went to this past summer. Heather is a triple certified parenting coach, author of an Amazon bestseller called How I Fixed My Teen and Soon to Be Published Author of Mom Got Jesus Wrong, hallelujah. She is the host of the Top rated Parenting podcast with decades of experience helping parents raise emotionally healthy teens, Heather offers a clear voice of hope and practical wisdom. Especially for families wrestling with spiritual disconnection. When a teen decides they no longer want to embrace the family's religion, it can feel like rejection, heartbreak, and fear rolled into one. Heather knows that ache personally and professionally. She helps parents shift from panic and pressure to connection and clarity, so faith doesn't become a battleground. But a bridge. Her book, mom Got Jesus wrong. Hallelujah. Explores how faith, love, and identity can be reimagined inside complicated family dynamics. Heather's mission is to help families heal without compromising authenticity or love. The conversation you'll hear is going to help bring insight to how you can show up in your relationship with a child who has chosen differently in their spiritual path. We dive into why as parents, it means so much to us that our kids follow in our footpath when it comes to religion. And Heather shares the meaning behind the title of her new book. Mom Got Jesus Wrong, hallelujah. It is a deeply meaningful discussion, and Heather is just the coolest person. And Mom, I know you're gonna love her. Sense of humor, her down to earth style, and her incredible passion for families to stay connected and loving regardless of any one individual's choices. It is powerful. So let's get into it. Enjoy. Hey Heather. Thank you so much for joining me on Hope Stream today. I am glad we got to meet each other actually a few weeks ago in person, which is always nice. So nice tonight not be on Zoom with somebody. Right? Like to be in person. That is fair.

Heather:

Thanks Brenda for having me on. And it was so delightful to meet you in person. We had a good weekend.

Brenda:

It was super nice. So Heather and I are part of a a kind of a marketing group together and we, it, it's just, it reminded me of the importance of in person human to human connection. It's so important in these days when we are all just on screens and I guess, 'cause I went through. So many years of business and being, you know, going, flying all over the world of meetings and like, that was just what you did. Like, you would never even think about just having a relationship on the phone with someone. So yeah,

Heather:

virtual is very new. Yeah.

Brenda:

And I'm not sure I'm such a fan. It's good in

Heather:

some ways and it's not good in some ways.

Brenda:

Yeah, exactly. Well, and you have a podcast, pivot Parenting. So Heather has an awesome podcast, and like me, she spends a lot of time with a microphone in front of her face. Yes. Talking to people on a screen. I I, have you ever done an in-person podcast like where you're sitting in those cool chairs and they have the mics hanging out? I have, I was

Heather:

guessing on. My coach is Carrie Marshall, her podcast, and she records in the studio, and so I went to her studio, which was so fun.

Brenda:

That looks super cool. That's, I've never done that. Yeah. It's so weird. That's extra. Yeah, that is. I feel like that's the next level when I get to do one of those.

Heather:

Yes. It's like the big shows that you see videos of.

Brenda:

I know, and then I have to actually have an outfit on because I I won't be able to sit with you sweat on. Exactly. Oh, okay. Well, let's get into what we wanna talk about. So I was telling you that this is, I'm excited to have this conversation because I have never covered the topic of. Faith and religion and spirituality and what happens with all of that when our kids decide to maybe do something different. And yes, it's a part of life. Obviously. A lot of families deal with this, not just our families who have kids who struggle with substance use, but I think especially in our families, there's so much going on and the kids. End up going through so many different experiences and that often leads them to reconsider a lot of things in their life, including what kind of soup they were stewed in growing up. And obviously a lot of that has to do with our faith and our religion and what we believe and what we don't believe in. Absolutely. So I'm thrilled to have you here to talk about this 'cause it is, it's such a unique topic and I am so glad that we have somebody to like. Rumble around with it in because it's a lot.

Heather:

It is a lot. And it's something that's so deeply ingrained in our hearts and minds and souls that it can really affect us in ways that we can't even articulate.

Brenda:

Yes, because, and I was just recording a podcast where we talked about, we just sort of assume when our kids are young, even before you have kids, so. You envision this life, right, with your spouse or your partner, and then you have these beautiful kids, and then life is very rosy and there's lots of unicorns and it's amazing.

Heather:

And then, yeah, well the, the majority of stories end with, and they lived happily ever after, so to speak. And that's like, yeah, we never arrive and get to vacation land.

Brenda:

No, we don't. We might have moments of it and glimpses of it, especially when they're young. Right? Sure. And we're still in control for the most part. And I say the most part because that's, that's kind of the truth. But you know, I grew up in going to church every weekend. Yeah. There was certainly an expectation that, you know, even when I was a teenager and I would be maybe out at a friend's house and we were doing things we weren't supposed to do. I was in that pew at, I don't even know what time it was, 10 o'clock on Sunday morning, no matter what. And I kind of raised my kids thinking, doing the same thing. And then at some point that stopped, and it's kind of heartbreaking because. If that's part of your life, and it's not part of everybody's life. So some people listening are gonna be like, I don't even know what you're talking about. I've never been in a church in my life, but you. But I think the same principle applies that there are things that you, these expectations that you have that all of a sudden are not happening and you're like, wait a minute, what happened?

Heather:

Yeah, I've seen that politics and religion can often be very similar, where the family is very much one way and if children try to break from that or like socioeconomic or education wise, when children break from that, it can be really hard for parents.

Brenda:

Yes. So with religion, spirituality, faith. When our kids make a different choice, whether that's overt or a little covert on the down low uhhuh, how can, how do we wrap our brains around that? I mean, it goes so deep. It's not like, oh, well our family is vegetarian. Now you're not vegetarian. Right. It's like this is very, very deep.

Heather:

Yeah. And when we believe that it's deep and that it's. It's determining, you know, if our kids go to heaven or hell, it feels very intense. Yes, and I like to check in. I dunno if people are gonna like to hear this. I like to check in with my own faith. So just a little bit of background. I have four kids two are adults and two are in high school. And my two adult children both don't want anything to do with the faith, the Christianity that they were brought up in, and much like you every Sunday. I was on that pew, right? And that's how I was raised and that's how I raised my children, that on Sunday we go to church. And I love Jesus. I love prayer. I love the hymns. I love the blessings that worshiping brings to me personally. And. A big piece of worship is faith. The divine that I know is very loving, all knowing and is never gonna snap his fingers and say, well, I don't know what to do with you now because you, you ruined my plan right there. There's no way that the divine, I know we, that we can ruin the plan. And so when I look at my older kids who have decided to, my oldest does not believe in God. My second says, you know, he's agnostic so you can't prove or disprove, right? He's very cerebral and very intelligent, and that just, that fits his personality so well. Yes, that really wounded me because. I, I want all my kids to go to heaven, so to speak, and I wanna be with them forever, and I want to, to not have them suffer or be lonely or sad or upset. And I think that a lot of Christian belief misses the mark. Or goes beyond the mark on what we were taught by Christ himself. And I think that maybe this is well intentioned or not well intentioned. Yeah. To try and manipulate or coerce us into staying with the herd. When we dissect what is culture and what is doctrine that Christ taught, we can get a lot of clarity. On lifestyle choices that our kids might choose. And then the biggest point for me is having faith that God loves my child more perfectly than I do. Like I love the scripture about. If your kid asks for bread, you might give him a stone or you might give him bread. But I'm always gonna give him bread because I love him perfectly. And to remember that, that, that God loves my child better than my flawed person can. Humanity? Yes. Yeah. And having faith that. That God is not. I've never known God to be punitive and demanding and punishing. I've always received so much grace and I know that this is my experience and not everyone's experience, but we have to really look as well at what we're being taught and the experiences that we're having with religious leadership. The filter or the lens or how that light has been skewed. Right? And if we wanna choose to believe that that's God acting through that leader or authority, or if that's partly them and maybe just a little part God or no part God, like we, we really have to discern for ourselves what is goodness and what is perhaps coercion or manipulation.

Brenda:

I think the thing I, that really just stood out to me is when you talked about like we can't ruin the plan, which is Yeah. Very comforting to know regardless of what you believe, you know, I think a lot of parents are parents when their kids are struggling so much and you're seeing your kid in so much pain. And doing things that are so harmful to themselves. Often if you haven't had a higher power, you find one because you realize, oh, there has to be something bigger at play here, something bigger than what I can see here on earth. And so that idea of like, I can't ruin the plan. I can probably ruminate myself to death. I can make myself so worried. I can do all these things, but there's a bigger plan at play. It feels really good to me like that just somehow that really sunk in. And also when you talk about discerning, like what is actual, like earthly opinion and you know, things that have been just sort of invented and created and what we do it this way versus what do we really know to be true. Such an important distinction, and I think that's hard to do, especially if your own, if you're a little crazy, like if you're so stressed and worried and you're trying to, yeah. Oh,

Heather:

it is really hard to do. Depe, especially depending on your relationship with the divine leading up to this. Yes. Because not only can you not mess up God's plan, but your kid can't mess up God's plan. Right. Even if they overdose and pass away, God's plan is still in place. Yes. And so literally our brain likes to go to worst case scenario. That's why I throw that out there. There is no way. If we believe what the Bible teaches us, that we can mess up God's plan for us or our child.

Brenda:

I agree with that. And I also am not a person who has lost a child. So I think for me it's easier to say that, right? Like and even about my son to say, you know. In the midst of it, if somebody would've said, oh, well this is God's plan for Enzo to go through this hellish experience, I would've been like, what? No. You know, like I would've been very defensive. That could feel

Heather:

offensive.

Brenda:

Yeah. So how do you sort of wrestle with that? Like how do we make sense of that if something really horrible has happened? Like we lose a child, whether it's overdose or cancer, whatever it is.

Heather:

Yeah. I think the whole point of our human journey is to practice agency and to become wise stewards and learn and grow and develop as a human, and we have to have agency in order to be able to do that. I don't mean to dismiss or diminish the pain. That agency can bring, right? Whether that's what our child is choosing or what people are choosing to impose upon us.

Brenda:

Yeah,

Heather:

because everybody has their agency and we mo for the most part, we run around harming one another with that agency. But I think when we can use Grace or Mercy along with justice, that there is a balance where the divine can. Walk us through and be with us in those hard moments. And, and Christ Atomic can justify, or in other words supplement all of that pain for our benefit. Mm. So it's not fun. And I'm not saying that God's plan was for your kid to become an addict.

Brenda:

Right.

Heather:

But because of agency, we can choose to become addicts. And we can choose to get behind the wheel of a car when we shouldn't be driving, and we can choose all kinds of really awful things to do to ourselves and those around us. And that's painful. It's so painful. No matter how badly we use our agency, none of it is beyond the scope of what can be repaired and put to right.

Brenda:

I talk sometimes, you know about worrying is worshiping the problem. And the more that we do that, the more we are basically saying to God, to your higher power, you can't handle this. I need to worry about it. I need to control this situation. And so that's a, that's a good perspective to keep.

Heather:

Well there's two things to kind of point out in what you're saying. And the first one. Is that it makes total sense when you're focused on the here and now, because when we are so wrapped up in what's happening, our nervous system is engaged. So the fight, flight, freeze, fawn, shutting down, running around, putting out fires, that's our nervous system and it is. It is only right now.

Brenda:

Yes,

Heather:

we cannot play the long game when we are in fight, flight, freeze fawn. It, it is very focused on right now. And so to be able to pray, to be able to meditate, to be able to ground ourself, to, to calm ourself enough that we can step out of right now and see that bigger picture. Is huge. Yes. And sometimes we can do that on our own and sometimes we can't and we need help and that's not a problem. And then the piece where you were saying, no, I gotta handle this. I don't know if God can handle this. So this is one of my favorite things to point out and to observe in the world around me and in myself. Which is this nasty little cocktail that keeps us stuck, and it's a two part cocktail. The first part is unhealed wounds, and the second part is ego.

Brenda:

Mm.

Heather:

And so we can have an unhealed wound where I don't trust God because this is how God has been sold to me, or this is my experience with God. I don't trust that he loves my child or gives a flying crap about me or my family. Right. That could be one example. Right? Right. So you have that wound and then you have this pride of, I'm not gonna talk to him myself. I'm not gonna work this out. I'm just gonna do it myself. Right? And so we really inhibit our own growth and comfort because of that two-part cocktail. Of woundedness and pride,

Brenda:

and you're saying that's what really keeps us stuck

Heather:

and it's really hard to unstick yourself. That is why therapy and coaches and spiritual leaders that are safe, those are all really important to be able to see yourself clearly, to heal your wounds, to be able to connect with the divine however you choose to see them, so that you can then. Relax and let go of your ego and turn things over to God and feel supported.

Brenda:

Hey, I wanna pause for just a sec to talk about something that has been life changing for so many women who started right where you might be. By listening to the show, if you're feeling the isolation, the exhaustion, like nobody gets what you're going through, there is a place designed specifically for you. The stream is our private community for moms and female caregivers, for parenting teens and young adults through substance use and mental health struggles. And when I say private, I mean completely confidential. It is not connected to Facebook or any other platform, or your business could become everyone's business. What members love about this stream is that you can be as visible or as anonymous as you want. Some moms jump right into conversations and calls. Others like to read and learn quietly in the background. Both are perfect. It's not social media. It's genuine community focused on learning growth and breaking through the isolation that might be keeping you from moving forward. Right now. Whether your child is in active use in treatment or early recovery. You'll find practical strategies and tools that actually help motivate healthier choices because we know you wanna see positive change in your family. Check it out@hopestreamcommunity.org. We would love to welcome you into this village of support and understanding. Okay, back to the show. The first part of that cocktail, and I love kind of thinking about it in that way. The unhealed wounds are, so I think that what I've seen is a lot of people use that as the reason to not lean in, but to lean away and to say,

Heather:

well, and that's there you ego.

Brenda:

Yeah. Like my, you let my mom die from cancer. Mm-hmm. You let my dad abuse me. Yep. You let my sister die in a car crash. Like those are the things that can be a really big shield. That we put up like and, and I think it's an emotional response and also ego to say, well, yeah, can't count on you.

Heather:

Yeah. We're just trying to protect ourselves. We all do this and I love the people who are stuck, stuck in this so much because if we're honest with ourself, we can all relate to varying degrees and it feels awful, but it feels like our only choice. Because it's too scary, like that feeling of stuckness. It's too scary to look at ourselves and how we're contributing to the problem. And so instead, we blame our kids', stupid friends that introduce them to drugs.

Brenda:

Yeah.

Heather:

Or the legal system or the hospital, or our spouse or clergy or whatever we blame. And we need everybody to change in the world before we can find peace and happiness. A sense of safety. Yeah. That day's never going to come. Nobody wants to play along. No. They would like us to play along odd that we don't wanna play along with how they want us. Exactly.

Brenda:

It's like it's a two way street until it's my street and then it's a one way street.

Heather:

Exactly. Exactly. And so it's actually so much easier and we have complete control. Over the situation, which gives comfort in looking at our wounds, our hurts, the things we haven't wanted to confront. How our stubbornness and willfulness and inability to see ourselves is actually the biggest problem.

Brenda:

Mm-hmm. And it can be the biggest gift if you are willing to do that work, right?

Heather:

Yeah. The pendulum's gonna swing equally in both directions.

Brenda:

Yes. I, I often think I was talking to some friends it, you know, and I'm eight years past, sort of the worst of our. Crisis with my son, and I'm to the point now where I really think he took one for the team. Like he, his experience led to my growth and my enlightenment. Yeah. And all, all of these amazing things for me. And it's almost like I owe him. Thanks. To have done what he did and to go through what he did because it was so, he paid such a high price for it and I got so much out of it. Do you see that? Like it's such a weird thing.

Heather:

I completely agree, and I applaud that. So that's humility. That is giving up your ego. Not every parent has that experience because they are unwilling to question themselves. But that's exactly what started my journey as well, when my two kids were like, yeah, Jesus isn't for me. And I was like, but I need you to be saved and do all the things please, and thank you. And they were like, yeah, no thank you. It really made me, because I tried to control them and it didn't work. They didn't wanna play along, and so it made me reflect back on myself. And what I could do about it and, and what, how I was contributing and how I could shift to find peace. Because ultimately we all control our own reality and that I don't mean that in be so we should all be happy all the time. We should not be happy all the time, but we do control our, how we experience the world.

Brenda:

I am so curious about. That process for you and sort of what you had to do to take in their No. Thank you.

Heather:

And that's a lot PLI than they told me. Yes,

Brenda:

I am sure it is. That is the, that is the G-rated Disney version of, I'm sure what actually went down, but like what did you have to do with that information to continue to have a relationship with them? Like what was your role in all of that and how did you grapple with this really significant departure? Yeah.

Heather:

I, I had to do a lot of work and so. For video, this is like my little journal and I would write down so many things in here. And this was pain heartache. This was spiritual guidance that I would receive. It was kind of years worth of growing up spiritually, honestly, and not expecting my kids to tell me that I was a good mom through their choices and. So I distilled all of these lessons. Into my upcoming book, mom Got Jesus wrong, hallelujah. And there are six steps, but, but self-help and nonfiction can sometimes be boring. Yeah, I'm honest. So it reads as a young woman's journal, so it's like Tanner, 11 months worth of her having this spiritual awakening. And so I've sewn all of my lessons into her fictional narrative. I've also sewn a lot of my experiences and my friends and family members' experiences that were harmful and also healing so that it, it reads fast and it's really informative, but essentially in a nutshell, really just. Looking at yourself and recognizing, you know, you're the common denominator in every relationship in your life. So this is true. What keeps repeating, like, and how can I change that?

Brenda:

I love that. And I love the name of the book. Like how, tell me a little bit about how you came to that as the name, as the title of the book.

Heather:

Yeah, so I actually wrote the book several years ago in 2023. And I. Was working on art for it and other pieces, so that's why it's publishing now in 2025. But for the first few years, as I was writing in my notebook, before I even ever sat down to write, the name of it was actually JC the og. I love that. So Jesus Christ, the original gangster. Right,

Brenda:

right.

Heather:

But it didn't, it didn't pass the title test, which is fine, but this might sound really morbid. A lot of times I picture what my kids will think after I'm dead. Mm. And the legacy that I could potentially leave for them. Yeah. And I just thought, you know, if I die, maybe my kids will search for something higher. Maybe they'll be ready at that point. And so I'm gonna leave them this book that outlines the steps that they can actually find Christ if they're interested. And then of course, as I wrote, I thought, oh, a lot of people could really benefit from this. So maybe it's not just for my kids, but. The original title, JC the OG, was because I feel like myself and the, and future generations, we don't like the Jesus that's been sold to us.

Brenda:

Mm-hmm.

Heather:

He's white, he's a, you know, rule enforcer. He's not very nice.

Brenda:

Yeah.

Heather:

But my kids, and I think most kids growing up are looking for a leader. A leader that doesn't like racism and sexism and all the isms. Yes. And that is, is wanting to flip the table and make, instead of systems of oppression, systems of love. Mm. And systems of inclusiveness and generosity and goodness. And a lot of the youth get it wrong in that they. Think that this needs to be fueled with a lot of rage and anger and frustration. Well, we can look at a microsystem of this and realize that it just isn't sustaining, like hating your body so much that you lose weight. Well, guess what? You're gonna gain it back. That's like a simple one person way that this plays out. We can't hate our body so much that it becomes beautiful. It's not sustainable. And so when we have a whole society and culture wanting to make change out of hatred and resentment and frustration, and I get why those are there because I feel them too. I see the systems of oppression. I see the systems of hate, and I have to really do a lot of work to not fight fire with fire. But Christ flipped the tables with love. And so he is the leader that we all want, just not the one maybe that was sold to us. And so the title Mom Got Jesus wrong. Hallelujah. Is. Not sarcastic. It's very much in my experience and in other people's experiences how the Christ they were sold is modesty, police, and is, you know, women are second class and we need to default to a white dude to tell us exactly how to be like. Maybe not. Maybe mom was wrong.

Brenda:

Yeah, I get it. Yeah, it's, and I would love to learn a little bit more about your relationship, like the, the more practical side of the relationship with your boys who have kind of said No thank you. Because this comes up a lot with our kids who go through. Some very, you know, sometimes it's a, it's a spiritual awakening when they find recovery. Sure. And they may find either like they, they totally disassociate with what they were brought up in or they find something new. But then there's the practical side of you're getting together at Thanksgiving and you're all sitting around the table and it comes time to, what you would normally do is like. Say grace, like, I'm just kind of curious about how does this play out in the real world when you have such differing viewpoints, practices, mindsets? Like how does that work?

Heather:

Yeah, so my oldest is my daughter and then I have a son and sometimes they leave the room for prayer. Sometimes they stay in the room. I want them to be comfortable.

Brenda:

Yeah.

Heather:

And so I'm not going to be a stickler, and this is just me. People can do their thing, but I believe that God wants me to have a good relationship with my kids. Yeah. Weird. And so, and I want them to be respectful of my beliefs, which means I need to be respectful of theirs. Mm. So beautiful. And hold space for that. And so. Like we pray every day as a family and we'll say, Hey, it's per time whomever wants to come or will you join us? Or whatever. And sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. And that's totally cool. That's again, that's for them to figure out. I can't meddle with their relationship with God. I've tried it doesn't work well.

Brenda:

Yeah.

Heather:

And it makes sense why some kids find the divine or do not find the divine based off of their. Spiritual experiences and substances. So I, the community I live in is very religious. And sometimes I think people turn to substances because they don't feel like they measure up in that religious setting. Or for other reasons. Yeah. But I think that it's really important with your child and the substances or choices that they're making to. Be honest about, is this spirituality that I've taught them or not taught them, is that affecting how this is playing out for good or ill? Yeah. Because a, a lot of us humans down here, when we know we can't win, we give up. Hmm. And so if the bar is so high, like parents, for example, I coach parents of teens. Yeah, right. That's, that's my deal. So parents who nitpick their kids and really hold back on, you know, complimenting or praising. They have kids that either cave in anxiety and constantly just chase their parent around trying to please them, or they're like, screw you. Yeah. And they go the exact opposite way because they can't win, so they might as well do whatever they want. Yes. And so to be able to see, well, am I selling my kids a Jesus that hates them unless they're perfect. Well, no wonder they don't wanna go to church. It feels terrible. Right. That's a hard sell. Yeah. Like, ooh, yes. Let me see how bad I suck for several hours a week. That sounds amazing. Like, no, thank you. Yeah. Sign

Brenda:

me up.

Heather:

I would love to do that. No. Yeah, and I'm not saying that God condones just any old behavior, but we have to have the love there and the grace and the understanding and the relationship, just like you and I don't. If a stranger walked up to us and corrected us on a few things, we'd be like, who are you? Like get. But if somebody, our best friend who we trust is like, listen, I've seen these things and I know you're gonna be happier if you work through these things. We'd be like, thank you for telling me. Yeah. It's the same thing with our kids. It is nurturing their relationship with the divine as much as they're interested. Right.'cause you can't, you can't. Make your kids do anything. But being really aware of how their spiritual experience good or ill is impacting that substance use.

Brenda:

Yeah. I think the, the pressure part of this, whether that's a, you know, pressure from the parents, from the church, from whatever expectations have been placed on them, is, I, I just hear, you know, I'm not a therapist, but I hear this over and over and over for six years. I've heard this from therapists, from psychiatrists, from psychologists. It's those expectations which are often extremely unrealistic. Come from some other, who knows where they came from, that kids, oh, I'll tell

Heather:

you where do they come from? But finish your sentence and then I'll tell you.

Brenda:

But tho, but those are, you know, kids look at that and they're like, okay, cool mom, dad, that works for you. Doesn't really work for me.'cause I am my own human. I am not you. I am not the person who was four generations before you who said that. We always do it this way. Like, and especially, and I don't know. I would love to hear your thoughts. If it's this generation, like the kids who are maybe like 10 to, you know, or maybe not 10, but let's say 20 to 30 ish that they're not buying in. To the crop. No, they're not that We're trying to sell them. Right. Like this. Yeah. And I feel like that's different. Is that different? Like what do you see in that?

Heather:

I think every generation kind of evolves and asks the last generation, well, why? Well, why, right? Like you and I are Gen X. And like the Berlin Wall came down in our time and gay people could join the military and like there were movements made, but we just discount them because they just were happening and we weren't recognizing the impact. I think every generation pushes back and questions, and I think that this is really good for evolution and evolving and. Going off the expectations, these unrealistic expectations that every, that you hear a lot Yes. In your practice. Yes. This is the cocktail. This is the unhealed wounds and the ego. Because essentially, like let's say your parent expects you, like I'm coaching a gal right now, and she really wants her son to have a very specific college experience.

Brenda:

So common. She

Heather:

wants him to Dr. Join a certain fraternity because then he'll have friends and she wants him to go to a certain school and she wants him to do all these things. Really high expect and very specific expectations. Yes. And it is because if he does that, then she will feel like he is safe.

Brenda:

Right. And don't you think it also checks a box on her ego and her?

Heather:

Yeah. Like absolutely. I know I did a good job.

Brenda:

Mm-hmm.

Heather:

Yeah, my kid will be safe. I did a good job. I can finally relax. Things are gonna be okay. And really this just, it brings raising kids, especially kids who don't play along with our expectations. They are, like you said, with your son, the most helpful thing that you could have in your life because they will bring all of your wounds and ego to the surface.

Brenda:

Oh yes. They do. For

Heather:

you to deal with or continue putting on them.

Brenda:

Yes,

Heather:

and we get to choose. Yes. In any given conversation and situation, am I going to say, you're right, I did a really bad job at that, or are we gonna be like, no, if you would just listen. Stake. The choice is ours. The

Brenda:

choice is

Heather:

ours. And so those unrealistic expectations, I have so much compassion for those people because they are carrying around all of. This trauma and heartache that they haven't dealt with and set down yet. Yeah, and that's really hard. That's so heavy and it feels so awful. It's a lot. And so to be able to heal those wounds so that they can create safety within themselves instead of expecting other people to give that to them.

Brenda:

Had any of this been percolating in your brain, in your heart and your soul prior to your kids kind of departing your religion? Or was this No. Like a slap in the face and then you started figuring all this out? Yes. The latter. Yes, the latter. I was like,

Heather:

things are going good. Look how amazing. I'm right. It's all perfect. And then, yeah, like a sucker punch.

Brenda:

Okay. That had to have been difficult. And how did you start to work through that yourself? I cried a lot. Yeah. Journal cry. Journal cry.

Heather:

I cried a lot. I blamed myself. I beat myself up. I looked back at all the things I hadn't done well or hadn't done at all, or the things I did badly. I blamed myself I, which is really common because our brains want it to be all within our control. So if it's my fault, then I can fix it. But if my kid is choosing it, that's harder for me to, to control.

Brenda:

Yes. Good perspective. Yeah. And

Heather:

so. It really was just a process again, of just humbling myself enough to see myself clearly, and then letting go of those expectations. It's kind of like, you know how little kids or rides that we've been on will have steering wheels. We think that we're white knuckling to it, and then we realize we were never steering. No, we just, were never steering, but we're white knuckled to it. But when we go left, it doesn't go left like somebody else is actually driving what we're on. Yes. When I, when I slowly unfurled my white knuckles from the steering wheel of false sense of control, I could finally relax enough to be like, oh. It's actually okay. Yeah. And I can actually love my kid and we can have a fun time together and I don't have to walk around hurt all the time.

Brenda:

Yeah. Or trying to fix them or convince them differently or trying to fix it.

Heather:

And the weirdest thing happened. My kids all of a sudden liked being around me more. Mm. Weird. Weird. When you're not getting like weird when I wasn't like strangling out of them. Like be what I need you to be. Yes. They finally liked me.

Brenda:

What about, it's so weird. So true. What about like, it seems like you've gotten to a good place with this within, you know, within yourself. What about extended family or other people in the community, other people in the church who are looking at you and going, well, Heather, why are you not fixing this? Well, why are you letting the, yeah. Do that.

Heather:

Yeah. No, my sister-in-law is in a similar boat and somebody in her congregation just said, well, you just need to set him down and tell him your expectations. And she thought, oh, wow, I've never thought of that. Good, sir. Thank you for fixing my problem. Like, I don't know how this is gonna come off. I tend to only hang out with people that wanna emotionally evolve. Mm-hmm. So I'm happy to have conversations, but people who are judgy, like that's cool. Yeah. It doesn't carry weight with me. Yeah. They can have their opinions and I'm old enough and I'm a big enough girl that I can be like, that's cool. You can totally judge me again. Agency. Mm-hmm. We make ourselves crazy when we don't want people to judge us.'cause either we try, we fake it, or we get really mad and passive aggressive and weird.

Brenda:

Yeah.

Heather:

The third option is let 'em just let 'em. Yeah. Just be like, yeah, you're, you're obviously not my people. And when your life goes sideways and you need support, like I got you.

Brenda:

Yeah.

Heather:

I'm happy to embrace you and tell you, show you the ropes.

Brenda:

Yeah.

Heather:

Of how to let your kid be your kid and love them all the same. And if that day never comes for you, well then you don't get to, you know, gain the skills that I've gained and that's fine. Mm-hmm. And just let those people be those people. And if they're family members, that's kind of a bummer because it's, I really love family and I, I love, you know, that they're right there and they're supposed to be your people. They don't have to be your people.

Brenda:

Right. I know it is. It is tricky, but I think that's a great, I just wanted to ask that because it's something that we deal with, whether it's, you know, this topic of religion, faith, or with us, with kids who are using substances, we get a lot of well-intentioned advice, which usually sounds like, well, if you were, if you would just discipline them more. Or if you would just take away their phone. I hadn't thought of that. Whoa. Yeah. That is

Heather:

amazing. If people, if we can pause and look at the psychology of why they do that, it makes sense. They're sad for us. They're uncomfortable. They wanna tell us how to fix it so that everybody can be happy. Yeah. Because we don't like seeing people unhappy and uncomfortable. Yeah. The better option is to sit in the discomfort with them and witness and love. Right. Like, I see you, I maybe I don't understand what you're going through. Maybe I do, but I see you and I'm here for you. I'm gonna, you know, bring you dinner tonight.

Brenda:

Yeah. And it goes back to modeling.'cause if your kids see you responding with love in that way to somebody who's a hater, let's just call him that, then that says, oh. That's what Jesus looks like. That's what God looks like. That's what yeah, that's what it is. It isn't. Yep. Hate, it isn't disconnection, it isn't, you know, all of those things. So I think it, it serves two purposes. One for modeling what you know, you hope to put into the world and also just loving on that person where they are in that moment.

Heather:

Yeah, absolutely. And when that judgment and well, you should just discipline. But when that's coming at us. We don't have to entertain it. And like depending on where you wanna draw the boundary, you can cut 'em off and be like, thanks, but no thanks. Or you can listen politely and move on like it's up to you. But just understanding why they're doing that, they're uncomfortable with the discomfort and allowing for them to have that experience, which is what they're not doing for you. So you are giving them the grace. And maybe eventually they'll pick up on that. Maybe they won't. It's up to them. Yeah.

Brenda:

Well, if you had to give one thought, one word of wisdom to a parent who's going through this right now, whose kids are making different decisions and saying, no, thank you, G rated what, what would be a thought for them?

Heather:

A lot of grace and just smattering of love for you, for your kid, and just bring it down. Catch your breath. There's no rush. Nothing has gone wrong. It's just not what you expected.

Brenda:

Yeah,

Heather:

nothing has gone wrong. This is all just a learning process, even if it's not what we wanted and just. I am worthy of love. My child is worthy of love. Everyone in the story is worthy of love. Even if it's their drug dealer worthy of love, it doesn't mean we, and again, that's not permissive. Right. I'm not saying that we should invite 'em for Thanksgiving dinner.

Brenda:

Right? You

Heather:

could if you wanted, if you felt like that once, that was the best thing.

Brenda:

I did that once.

Heather:

That's awesome. That's awesome. But didn't go well. Just that we can love you. Okay. That's another podcast episode right there. That's a whole

Brenda:

nother podcast episode right there. But I brought their

Heather:

dealer to Thanksgiving. Did did you know? Did you know

Brenda:

it was a drug? I did know. I did know.

Heather:

Okay. See, you have a charitable heart. So I think just loving yourself enough to not blame yourself. To not blame your kid. Yeah. And that's where grace comes in. And then just, if you can't get there, get somebody to help you get there.

Brenda:

Yes. Yes. Pick

Heather:

up a book. Maybe my book. Grab a counselor or a coach. Get. Get the resources that you need to be able to find that inner peace, because what's within us, we radiate out.

Brenda:

Yes. When is the book out? Because I know we are gonna have folks wanting to get it. Is it out now? Okay, so it

Heather:

drops October 28th.

Brenda:

Okay.

Heather:

But anytime before November 1st, you're gonna get pre-order bonuses.

Brenda:

Oh.

Heather:

Which are fantastic. So the book club guide, I think is my most popular desired freebie. Okay. Because this is definitely a book you want for your book club. It's got a ton of juicy stuff to discuss. We go deep.

Brenda:

Okay.

Heather:

And then you're gonna get a fun soundtrack that's a little more lighthearted Nice. Spotify and iTunes. And then. The Facebook group and a few other little surprise items. I think there's like five or six fun freebies on there. The Facebook group is awesome because you can get on there and say, Hey, this is how the Sunday school discussion went totally sideways today, or, or whatever, right? So it's a safe space to share your spiritual mishaps and thoughts.

Brenda:

Which is so needed because it's just like we don't talk about that stuff, you know?

Heather:

No. We just go home and vent and get upset. Yeah. And then it damages our relationship with God and that's not, that's not good.

Brenda:

No. Okay, so that was before November 1st, you said.

Heather:

Yeah.

Brenda:

Okay. Well, we'll get a link in the show notes. So if you wanna get all of the goodies for Mom, got Jesus wrong, hallelujah. We will have that link in the show notes and you can get in those. And then the book comes out October 28th. So thank you so much for hopping on with me. This is such a rich conversation and so, so needed.

Heather:

Thank you. You're amazing and I love the work that you're doing. Likewise. Thank you so much.

Brenda:

Okay, my friend. If you want the transcript or the show notes and resources from this episode, just go to our website, hope Stream community.org, and click podcast. That'll take you to all things podcast related. We even have a start here playlist that we created, so if you're new here, be sure to check that out. Also, if you're feeling anxious and confused about how to approach your child's substance use, we have got a free ebook for you. It's called Worried Sick, A Compassionate Guide for Parents of Teens and Young Adults Misusing Drugs and Alcohol. It'll introduce you to ways that you can build connection and relationship with your child versus distancing and letting them hit rock bottom. It is a game changer and it's totally free. Just go to Hope Stream community.org/worried to download that. You are amazing my friend. You are such an elite level parent. It is an honor to be here with you and please know you're not doing this alone. You've got this tribe and you will be okay sending all my love and light and I will meet you right back here next week.

People on this episode

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Brenda Zane

Host
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Heather Frazier

Guest