From Chaos to Clarity: Parenting Kids Through Addiction with Healthy Boundaries and Autonomy, with Beth Hillman

ABOUT THE EPISODE:

Figuring out your evolving role as a parent during your child’s adolescence is difficult, even if you aren’t dealing with substance misuse. The natural inclination to protect and nurture is already being challenged by your child’s growing sense of autonomy. You’re told to step back, control less, and allow them to make their own mistakes.  

So, for parents of kids who are misusing substances and struggling with mental health, this process is especially agonizing. How do you walk the line between healthy support and “enabling?”  How do you, as a parent, even understand your own role anymore? 

Thankfully, my guest today has lots of answers.

Beth Hillman’s 16-year-old son attended a wilderness treatment program at the age of 16. Immediately afterward, he informed her that he would continue using.  Today, Beth is a double-certified life and parent coach who brings her lived experience to other families through a podcast, private and online coaching, and workshops. She has not only lived in the trenches, but has also helped many other families who found themselves navigating a painfully difficult path.

In this episode, we discuss specific, actionable ways to understand what it means to be a parent during this challenging time, ideas for building the scaffolding of both boundaries and safe spaces for our kids, avoiding power struggles with curiosity, and what it actually means to “meet kids where they are.”  

EPISODE RESOURCES:

• Beth Hillman Coaching website
• Parenting Post Wilderness podcast

This podcast is part of a nonprofit called Hopestream Community
Learn about The Stream, our private online community for moms
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Download a free e-book, Worried Sick: A Compassionate Guide For Parents When Your Teen or Young Adult Child Misuses Drugs and Alcohol

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Transcript

Beth: 0:06

We are so in charge when they're infants. We are just, we're everything to them and it is our absolute purpose to be everything for them, to feed them, to warm them, to close them, to smile and coup and all these things. And then slowly we are supposed to back off and nobody really knows when. And it's just like everyone is growing up at such a different rate and at such a different pace. What is supportive one day could be absolutely enabling the next day. It is so difficult to know. And then all of a sudden we're like, yeah, I don't need you anymore. Stop doing things for this kid, and it's just like wi it, even though there's 18 years it feels like whiplash.

Brenda: 0:54

Welcome to Hope Stream, the podcast for parents of teens and young adults struggling with substance use and mental health. I'm Brenda Zane. I've walked this path with my own child's addiction and high risk lifestyle. Each week, we help you gain clarity, learn new skills, and most importantly, find real hope in what might feel helpless. You are not helpless and you're not alone anymore. Find more resources@holtingcommunity.org. Hi, friend. Wow is all I can say about the conversation you are going to hear in a minute. It's always special to talk with another parent who has traveled this crazy journey. And my friend and colleague, Beth Hillman, a life coach for parents of struggling teens, is one of those people after her 15-year-old son attended wilderness therapy in 2018 for substance use and anxiety issues. Beth experienced her own anxiety, fear, and a desperate need for guidance as many of us do. That Pivotal experience inspired her to create the parent support that she always wished for. Beth is a double certified life and parent coach, an arbinger living with an outward mindset seminar facilitator and an uns shaming way process oriented facilitator. Beth brings a rare combination of empathy and lived experience to parents of struggling teens and young adults, whether they're home, transitioning, home or currently in treatment. Beth coaches, parents privately, in small groups and in online workshops. She is also a dynamic and captivating public speaker. She's presented at national and local conferences on parenting, struggling teens and influencing change within ourselves and others. Maybe partly because we're friends, we had a hard time nailing down what exactly we wanted to talk about because as we're both moms to young men who went through it in air quotes it, we could have covered a million things. In the end, though, I think we did a pretty good job of not going on too many tangents, and Beth shared so much from her perspective as a mom with lived experience and now a parent coach. We talked about the importance of autonomy for our kids, how to balance that with still being helpful and safe. We discussed what it actually means to meet your child where they are and why that concept is so hard for so many parents. And Beth dropped a nugget of wisdom That will be incredibly helpful if you're trying to figure out what your role in all of this craziness is. It is absolutely brilliant and simple and doable. Before we jump in, have you had some water today? Have you moved your body in a way that tells it you love it? Importantly, have you taken two to three deep breaths to help your nervous system settle down? It would be good to do that now if you have it. All righty. I am so excited for you to hear from my friend and colleague, Beth Hillman, parent coach. Let's do this. Beth Hillman, how fun is this? Hi, I'm so excited to be here. No, this is so fun. Is awesome. So if you've not heard of Beth Hillman coaching, I don't know where you have been, but she, she does so much coaching for families who are struggling through this, you know, really difficult thing. And last time I saw you. Fun fact, we were on paddleboards in a swimming pool doing yoga. That that is true. Isn't that fun? We get to have a little playtime together. Super fun. I know. Well, we cherish you as part of our coaching, coaching and facilitating community in the stream. I know you had a really awesome group, I think you called it from. Control to influence. Was that it? That's what it was called, right? Yes. Yeah, it was. Yes. Oh, I loved

Beth: 5:20

it. Yeah. Yes.

Brenda: 5:21

So, so good. We got really good feedback on that. So we loved that. And then I was like, how have we not done a podcast together? I know.

Beth: 5:30

Like

Brenda: 5:30

I was impossible.

Beth: 5:32

It's true. It's true. I was, I'm so honored to be here, honestly. Well, it's a, it's

Brenda: 5:36

awesome. I know we, I think we met maybe. Like Sapp in 2021 or something. Yeah, a long time ago. Ago. And so it's been really great to see your practice grow and be able to work together a little bit. And so, yeah. I'm

Beth: 5:52

so glad. I'm so glad we've gotten to know each other over

Brenda: 5:54

the years For sure. Yes. Yes. It's, it's amazing. Well, it's a, it's a tight industry. I hate calling it an industry 'cause that just seems very cold and impersonal. But there's so many incredible people and I just, anytime I can highlight, I. People doing the hard work.'cause this is not sexy work folks.

Beth: 6:15

This is

Brenda: 6:16

hard.

Beth: 6:17

This is crying at night for all, all the moms and dads that we love and are helping

Brenda: 6:23

struggle. Yes. It's highly emotional work. Yeah. So when somebody, you know, raises their hand, like you have to say, I will do this work. You have been through it yourself, which I think is vitally important. I just, I'm like, hands up. So I thought, well, we'll have a fun conversation. I asked you, what are the top three things that you see parents struggling with because you're like me, you, you see over a lot of families, and I loved your answers. I agreed with every single one of them. We probably don't have time to do a deep dive on every one of them. Nope. We probably better pick. Yeah, definitely pick, but, and you said Enmeshment was one. I absolutely agree with that. We have, we actually have a Hope Stream episode. If you search on our website, I think it's called Getting Un. Velcroed from your kid or something like that. I

Beth: 7:15

Ooh, I like that.

Brenda: 7:17

Yeah.'cause it's like you, you gotta get out of their back pocket, right. So, yeah. Oof.

Beth: 7:21

That is, it's so harder said than done

Brenda: 7:24

so much because, especially I think for moms, because you, your kids do need you to be in their back pocket up until a certain age, and then you gotta, that's why we called it the Velcro, I think it was, I don't know the Velcro episode or something like that. But you have to like. Pull yourself away and it, and it's scratchy and it hurts and it's hard. So

Beth: 7:49

yeah, there's just so much unknown with that because, uh, well one, we've been doing things probably a certain way for a certain amount of time, and it just becomes, even if it's unhelpful, it becomes habit. And so that's really hard. But I think one of the hardest things about UN Velcro is we don't know, and maybe are even our. Teen slash young adult, they don't even know if they can do it. We don't know if they can do it. And so the easy thing is just to keep doing it, whatever it is that we're doing. And so that's the hard part, is actually letting yourself as a parent be in the unknown so that you can see. If they step up and they're probably not gonna step up on the first try, so then you've got like multiple fails. That's why we're always talking about like, let your kids fail. And parents are like, I don't know what that means. And I get it because we're like, wait, what? And then we also, even if we do have some kind of an awareness of what that might mean, we actually don't dunno how it feels. And it feels like complete crap is how it feels. It feels wrong. It feels like you're being a bad parent. It feels like you're doing it wrong. It feels like. You are abandoning them. It feels awful. Yes. And so then we don't know what else to do except to sort of like jump back in or rescue it. It's really hard.

Brenda: 9:10

It is so hard, and it's usually what I see too, is that it tends to run in families. So if someone's really en meshed with their kids, usually they're. Their parents are very meshed in their lives. So then, right, so then you get this soup of like, everybody's in everybody's business and it's really, really difficult. So anyway, well we could go on that one forever, but I also wanted to get to you know, parents. Really understanding their part in the dynamic, not that you're at fault. Yes. There is a role that you play in this dynamic that's going on.

Beth: 9:48

Oh, yes. Oh, that's one of my, honestly, one of my favorite things, because I think you and I both came from being a regular, normal. Parent. Right. Just doing the best we could. It was so, so very confusing and discombobulating to understand what my part was because I was in a very common I guess notion. It's literally everywhere we look and, and we hear it, it's in our language, is that, well, if my kid is doing something and I'm reacting to them. Well, then it's their fault that they're doing it, because I wouldn't react if they didn't do it. You know, if my kid's coming home late for a curfew and I am freaking out, well, they just have to stop coming home late for a curfew, and therefore then I'll stop freaking out. So it's this, that's enmeshment, right? That is like, no, I'm gonna rely on somebody else to change their behavior so I can feel better. And that's where the, all the, my part, your part gets super confusing is because our, we're literally, I, I feel like are taught. Two en mesh. Yes. As a

Brenda: 10:58

society. Yes. And I think even more so now, like my parents' generation I, and I think technology's played a huge role in this. You know, we just went out and played at night, you know, whatever. Like there, I feel like there was a lot less of that. I'm sure there still was some, obviously, but I think. The, our parents, when I say our parents, I mean parents who are today probably in their seventies to nineties. Mm-hmm. Maybe eighties to nineties. And you know, it was like, go do your thing. No cameras, no phones, no. Like you had to go to a payphone if you needed to call somebody for help. And so there wasn't this ability to even technologically be so. Intermeshed in your kids' life. And so I do think, and then you've got all the fear of what's going on in the world and it makes sense that parents want to be so connected. But I do think that that's gotta feel like a lot for the kids. There's

Beth: 12:01

so much supervision. Yes. And you know, it's so funny 'cause I, and well, you might laugh at this, but I still, I refuse. To use Find my phone. Just so you know, I have it off. I never, I don't follow any of my, like I don't follow my husband, I don't follow my children. I do not use it. Yeah. And I look like a weirdo. People are like, I don't either. So you don't either? No, I don't either. Ah, that's so fun to know. We could be weirdos together and invite all of you who are listening to be weirdos with us. Yes. But it, it's like it causes panic attacks and anxiety and it's like, well, no, I'll be worse off if I don't know. I'm like, no, you won't. That's not true.'cause your brain is always gonna like fixate on the, the information you have. So I still am like, no, this is, this is a boundary that I hold. I don't follow my children. And if I wanna know where they are, I do something really crazy. Brenda, I call them. You call

Brenda: 12:56

them. I know. Yes. I will say the one exception to this is my son recently moved from Seattle to Phoenix. And he really did not have any kind of a plan. He didn't really know what route he was gonna take. He was driving by himself and I was very proud of myself. I did not even ask, but as he got on the road, I got a little text message that he had shared his location with me. Ooh. And I was like, wow.'cause we don't either, I don't have anybody, I don't even really know where to find it on my phone. Like, I don't know where to find my phone. On my phone. It's in some setting that makes me so happy. I dunno about, but, so I did for, you know, two days I was able to see where he was on this trip that he was driving down to Phoenix. But I will tell you, I was checking that thing like every 15 minutes. Where is he now? Oh, yeah. Oh, he's at a Starbucks. Where is he now? Oh, he's, and I thought if, and he's wonderful. I have zero concerns about this child, right? Imagine if that was a kid who was struggling, I would be an absolute lunatic. I mean. It's so, and and obviously everybody has their own

Beth: 14:11

Yeah.

Brenda: 14:12

Ability to manage that. But

Beth: 14:13

good.

Brenda: 14:14

Please, we're not shaming

Beth: 14:15

you if

Brenda: 14:15

you just find my phone, please. No, not at all. Don't feel that. But it might be good to try and experiment, maybe try going 24 hours without it. Yeah. As long as that's not like a safety risk.'cause sometimes I understand there's a safety issue there that, that it gets to a point where parents are like, okay, like for a while my son was living on a boat when he was also living in active addiction and Hmm. Had I known at the time that I could track his location, I probably would've just because that was a very dangerous combination. But yeah, no, it's not shaming at all. It's just maybe give yourself a break and see how you feel.

Beth: 14:51

You wanna, if you want to, seriously, if you wanna figure out what your part is, and if you wanna figure out how to separate from what your kiddo is choosing to do their actions or what they say, or what they do or what they don't do, and you wanna start to really separate the enmeshment. Here's the little trick. What are your thoughts? About their behavior. What are your feelings about their behavior and what are you doing or not doing about their behavior? That is your part. You have, we want to be responsible for our thoughts, our feelings, and our actions about something. And if it's not your thought or feeling or your action, it's not yours. Mm. So I'm just gonna throw that out there with a big help. Mm-hmm. Because that's something that I've had to really figure out and I wanna like shout it from the rooftops because I think it is so hard to know. Like, wait a minute. So yes, if my child is coming home late from curfew. That's not mine, right? They, they did that, but I absolutely have thoughts about it. Like, how could they, why are they doing this to me? They have no di they have no respect. That, those kinds of thoughts. And then of course I have all the feelings. I feel disrespected, I feel hurt, I feel worried, I feel scared. Those are all mine. And then I have the actions in whether I follow through or don't follow through or yell at them or shame them or whatever it is they do. That is all my part, thoughts, feelings, actions. So. There's a little nugget that is brilliantly helpful. Do you recommend people like write those out? Yes. A huge fan of writing things down. I love the pen to paper because there is something with your hand and your brain that's significant, but if you wanna do it on the computer, if you wanna do it on a voice memo, like whatever it is that works for you, it's very helpful to get it outta your brain.

Brenda: 16:39

I like the idea of using a voice memo.'cause you could do that like right in the moment. Like let's say you're driving. Yeah. And something goes down and you could immediately just record into your phone. This is what I like.

Beth: 16:50

Oh, I cannot believe

Brenda: 16:51

they did it again. Yeah, that's, that's very powerful. I like that. Awesome. Good tip. Very good tip. Thanks. Yeah, it's a good tip. We like making things practical here. You know, it's, it's one thing to have all these kind of theories and all these things out there, but I remember when I was in it, I was like, please, somebody just give me something to do. Tell me, tell me what to say, what to say, or give me a, a concrete example, right, of these things, because. Know, if you're reading some PhD's book who has a 4-year-old and a 7-year-old, and they're telling you about boundaries, and you're like like, join me. I know how to translate that in my living room at three o'clock in the morning. And then let's talk about boundaries. So I think the, the practical application is super important. Okay. So yes, understanding your part is important and I also recognize that it is. Not the funnest thing to recognize that you do have Yeah. A part, again, not responsible, but having a part in that because it's a system and you can't just, it's a system. Think that the whole thing's revolving and you're not included. Like it's impossible.

Beth: 18:05

Yeah. And if you do think that, then we get it because. We were once there. Yeah. And so it's like, oh yeah, I understand that. And it does take I guess I'd say courage just takes courage to look at your part in anything, right? Yeah. Man, it's, yeah, it's tricky. And I know a lot of people don't include thoughts. They're like, well, I didn't do anything. Like, okay, fair enough, but what were you thinking? You know, which leads to failings, which leads to actions. So I think that's really important 'cause everybody has thoughts about things so. Oh yes, we definitely do. Yeah, we really do. So taking accountability for your thoughts is a huge help in just uncovering, you know, the beginning of like the dynamic and stuff, so,

Brenda: 18:47

yes, yes. So, well, kind of along the lines, I guess going back to en measurement and, and a little bit I get this question all the time about what is supportive and what is enabling. Yes. And I really don't like the word enabling, but I'm gonna use it 'cause everybody knows what we're talking about. It just feels like help. It's unintentional support that could potentially prolong or make it easier for somebody to continue in their negative behavior. Whether that's substance use, whether that's risky behavior, self harm, whatever it is, you could be inadvertently doing things. That prolong that or make it easier for them to continue. So we always talk about we're trying to starve the disease of addiction, right? We're trying to pull things back or hold things that are going to make it easier for them versus harder for them to continue in that behavior. And it is a very fine line to know. What that is, you know? Yeah. The $20 I gave for the haircut and then I didn't see the haircut. Hmm. You know? Yeah. Like how many times do you do that before you go? Yeah. There's no barber involved here. Seriously. Just not, there is no haircut happening. I don't know. What do you see on this?

Beth: 20:25

Yeah. It's so interesting. I just had one of my clients. And this could be like literally 20 clients. So if you think this is you, it's, it may not be, but their kiddo comes home from treatment, right. And there's just this period of time where it, transitioning home from treatment is extremely hard anyway, right? But the parents are trying to. Really not rescue. They're, they're trying to hold back. They're trying to let him have some autonomy because the kid's a little bit older. You know, just barely 18 kind of a thing. And the fear is that we won't. Catch it or that they, the, the, literally the fear is that, that, that they will well ruin themselves or that they will fail again, or that we'll have to put'em back in treatment or they won't. There's all of those fears in there, but I, I have to say, these parents did a really good job in just creating space to see what was gonna happen. And that is a very tall ask, especially coming home from treatment. They had systems in place, they had boundaries in place. They had, they had some things for sure they had a structure, but it was also fairly non-structured because he's trying to move out and he's 18 and that's I think, one of the hardest ti It is ex It is such a hard time because we have been, you can, I'm gonna ask you to keep. Pull me back on track here in just a sec, but

Brenda: 21:59

that's okay. I love tangents.

Beth: 22:01

Okay. We are so like, we are so in charge. When they're infants, we are just, we're everything to them and it is our absolute purpose to be everything for them, to feed them, to warm them, to close them, to smile and coup and all these things. And then slowly we are supposed to back off and nobody really knows when and, and some kids. You know are reading at four and some, I mean, just as an example, and some kids don't read till they're 10, and it's just like everyone is growing up at such a different rate and at such a different pace and it's so hard to know what is supportive. One day could be absolutely enabling the next day it is so difficult to know, and then all of a sudden we're like, yeah, I don't need you anymore. Right. Get out, peace out. Get outta my face. So it is, it is such a hard ask of like, okay, do everything for this kid. Now you're fired. You know, stop. Stop doing things for this kid. And it's just like wi it, even though there's 18 years, it feels like whiplash. It

Brenda: 22:59

a hundred percent does. And when it's hard to do it, even with a child who doesn't really have any of these issues with mental health and with substances and agreed all of that, it's hard. So then you put that. Those factors in, and you almost feel negligent if you are not right there. Right?

Beth: 23:20

That's exactly how it feels. It does feel negligent. It feels like, well, am I even, I've had so many clients that, am I even parenting anymore? Like, what's happening? And it, it really does feel like that. The beautiful thing about this interesting. Client that I was saying about is they created this space and it took about, we didn't know what was going on, right? Like, we're just going along. He's applying for jobs, he's moving out, he's keeping himself busy and doing things. Yet, there was something kind of weird happening. Nobody knew what, and turns out he on his own accord came and said, okay, hey, I'm using again. Now. That feels like a fail. I get that. But it was awesome because he did it on his own timeframe and up to his own like inner engine of just sick and ti. He was sick and tired of lying. I was so proud of him and I know that the. That's the perspective I get have as a, as a coach is. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. Yes. That he had the space, which is the parents' part. They created that safe space for him to be able to come up and say, okay, here's the truth.

Brenda: 24:42

When you say they created space for him and, and they were watching him, you know, do these things, get a job and move out, what does that mean? Like creating space for him?

Beth: 24:54

It is a, it's a scaffolding. The scaffolding is boundaries. As there's a lot of families who do this, it's like, okay, I will not give you cash, because it turns out there's hardly ever a barber, so there's no cash. However I'll put gas in your car once a month. Literally, I'll go with you to the gas station. I will fill up your tank and then I will pay for it. Something like that, or right. So there's a scaffolding in order to, to give them autonomy within a reasonable framework. And that's what I think is so hard for parents is because that's so nuanced from kid to kid to kid.

Brenda: 25:29

Yeah.

Beth: 25:29

And so you really have to feel into, okay, what are my child's diagnoses? What are their tendencies? What are their addictions? What are, you know, and, and asking yourself these things so you're not. You're not shooting from the hip, you're not, this isn't a dark place. You've got probably somewhat of a framework to work from. So it's like, okay, well maybe, you know, this daughter has, you know, bipolar maybe she's got trauma, da da da. And so you can kind of feel into, oh, well in that case we probably, the scaffolding needs to look like this, this, and this. Right? And if you've got an addicted kid, it's like, okay, absolute zero cash. That's pretty straightforward. Yeah. Yeah. Weekly, I, I'm a huge fan of weekly check-ins, which they were having. Nice. And really like, okay, do we, does this person have a car on their own or, or don't they? Right. And sometimes the answer's yes, and sometimes the answer's no. That's what's so hard about boundaries and about scaffolding, is because it literally is so nuanced. So what you wanna do is you really wanna look at. Where are they having trouble? Where can they literally not do it, and where can they do it? Yeah. And you really have to attune to what that looks like and, and it, it's a moving target. It it ab the scaffolding is a moving target because I, I had another client express their, their young adult came to them and said, you are so controlling. And the parent's like, what are you talking about? You have this and you have this, and you're driving yourself to your job, and we don't do this anymore. We don't do that anymore, and you've got autonomy here and here and here. And she's like, yeah, but you keep telling me what to watch.

Brenda: 27:20

Oh, wait, what?

Beth: 27:23

Like what? You know, 'cause the parents are making suggestions like, oh, you should, we think this TV show would be good for you. Oh, we just watched this great movie and you should watch this. And, and the parents are, it's so confusing. And luckily the parents said, oh, can you tell us more about that? Right. What do you mean by control? Yes. And then she was able to say, well, you keep telling me what I should watch and I wanna watch my own shows. It's like, oh

Brenda: 27:48

my gosh. You know, what's the key right there? But I wanna just back up for one second because for them to say. Tell me more about what you mean by controlling versus we are not controlling. We give you this and we give you this. Right? That is right there. That is a huge pivot point to be able to say, oh, I'm really curious. Why? Why do you say that? We're being controlling because obviously there was a reason that she was saying that. Yeah. But I think the, the default reaction to that as a parent who we think we're doing the best job we can, is to be defensive and push back and tell them they're wrong and then you are locked in a power struggle. And so that one shift to curiosity and openness and being willing to listen to them. Can make a massive difference. Yeah.

Beth: 28:49

It, it is, it is a, it really is night and day of falling, possibly falling into old patterns of blame and defense and all that, or just being curious like, oh. Because the parents are doing their work clearly 'cause they were able to say yes. Well, what? Tell me more about that. What do you mean? Yes. You know, so, which I'm sure they got

Brenda: 29:10

from their coach who probably possibly, who possibly told them that. That would be a really good way to respond to that. Turns out curiousness

Beth: 29:19

is really helpful everybody.

Brenda: 29:28

Hey, I wanna pause for just a sec to talk about something that has been life changing for so many women who started right where you might be by listening to the show. If you're feeling the isolation, the exhaustion, like nobody gets what you're going through, there is a place designed specifically for you. The stream is our private community for moms and female caregivers for parenting teens and young adults through substance use. The mental health struggles, and when I say private, I mean completely confidential. It is not connected to Facebook or any other platform, or your business could become everyone's business. What members love about the stream is that you can be as visible or as anonymous as you want. Some moms jump right into conversations and calls. Others like to read and learn quietly in the background. Both are perfect. It's not social media. It's genuine community focused on learning growth and breaking through the isolation that might be keeping you from moving forward. Right now. Whether your child is in active use in treatment or early recovery, you'll find practical strategies and tools that actually help motivate healthier choices because we know you wanna see positive change in your family. Check it out@hopestreamcommunity.org. We would love to welcome you into this village of support and understanding. Okay. Back to the show. There are kids that come home from treatment and they're like, I'm not gonna be sober. I, I did it during treatment often, but I am not, I'm not signing up for that. So what do you say to parents when, when you

Beth: 31:14

have one of those kids? Okay, that's, it's such a great question because it comes up all the time. All the time. And by the way, my son is no different. Right. Our son, we, he went to wilderness. The beginning of 2018. So it's, it's been a good seven and a half years. One, if your child is willing to say that to you, I think that's a win, because at least you're getting some honesty. That's not to say if your child says, no, I really, I really wanna not do it. That might be honest too. Totally. Right. But if they're saying like, I have zero plans of staying sober, it's like, okay. Thank you for resetting my expectations. I mean, I'm, I'm serious though, because Yeah. Then at least you're starting off on truth, which I think does matter.

Brenda: 32:01

Yes.

Beth: 32:02

So then honestly, what I would do is I would say, okay, it turns out, I mean, not necessarily in these words, but it turns out we have different goals. Right. You want to keep. Uh, using, I actually don't want you to keep using because I, my opinion is I feel like it's harmful, da da da da, da. And you probably have reasons for that. So one, I think it's super helpful in the moment to say, why, can help me understand Yeah. What's going on there. Right. And really having a conversation because as you and I both know, but it's still so hard to lean into, is every. Action. Every maladaptive behavior is answering a need. Yep. Always, always, always, always, always. There's, it's research backed. You can go look at the five needs of William Glasser and all that, that it's always answering a need. And it might be you and, and here's the thing is you might think, you know, yes, you might think you know, but it is so much more complex than what is maybe. Showing. Yeah. Because you, you, you might think, oh yeah, they wanna belong because they're going to parties and they're using, and that might, that might be a fair assumption, but typically it's, it's a lot, a lot more complex. Yes. So, but still asking and being willing to be curious is number one.

Brenda: 33:36

Yeah. It's a tricky one. I mean, especially if they're under. So if they're, you know, wanting to continue just to use marijuana and it's not legal, it puts parents in a big pickle. So I just wanna validate any parent out there who's in that situation that there is not a magic answer. There's not any like pixie dust that you've missed that solves this problem. It's difficult.

Beth: 34:01

Yes. It's so hard. It's so hard. I actually am really glad we're talking about this because the parent typically will try, and I did this too, will try to mo motivate, convince, persuade, uh, threaten, manipulate every word. Every word to think of yes to, to try to get them to. Obey or, or comply. Yeah. You're gonna try to control them. It's what you're gonna try to do. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, and you're gonna find out that it doesn't work again. Because I feel like as humans, we constantly have to be reminded that con trying to control someone else is futile. And yet. There's still so much you can do with our kiddo. He was 16 when he came home from treatment and which is pretty young. And luckily, even though he was doing much more than weed, he came home like, it's inevitable, mom. Like, I'm going to do it. And we're like, n no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what we just paid for. That's not what we're doing. And I am glad that he was honest because I could look back and go, huh? He told us. Yeah, he did. And it's interesting 'cause I actually think he tried. He did. I think he tried to stay away from it. He learned a lot of tools. He totally did. But then what was still there was still there because it's, these are deep, deep. Wounds. Yeah. That every human has. We just go about it in different ways.

Brenda: 35:45

Yeah.

Beth: 35:45

Our kiddos happened to choose, you know, the addiction using path, but when he got back into it, I was still shocked. Shocked. Even though he had actually said, mom, I will have it within five minutes of walking into that new school. I will know where to get it. Who to get it from. I'll have already gotten it given to me and I promise I will not have paid again. He didn't pay for one one, which is like, you're magic dude. Yeah. If you can get all those substances without paying for it, which was happening.'cause I was like, he doesn't have a job. How's he getting it? Well, it turns out they give to him. So anyway, what I, so I was, and we were not going back to treatment. That was something we decided. So I will just tell you what we did and what I did is I, I set up a structure that I could live with. Which was, if I found it, if I smelled it, if my awareness became aware of it, then there we did random room checks. I did it him out of the house because I couldn't, he was very scary to me in my system which is really common and normal, very common. And so I try to make sure like, okay, I have to set up something that I am literally willing, like my system's literally willing to follow through with, which was, hey kiddo. We will be doing random room checks. They will be while you're out. And luckily he was pretty social and so it's not like that kept him in his room, which some, sometimes you wouldn't be able to say that'cause they're already in the room. So this is not, I'm not saying what you should do, I'm just giving you an example of what worked for us, taking into account who our kiddo was and who we were. So we did random road checks. I would find it, I would throw it away. And I, I also though, because he was under 18, I said, you can always come home. I don't care what state you're in, you are always welcome here because one, he's under 18 and two, I wanted him to feel safe in our home. I didn't wanna punish him for the, the behavior. I wanted to try to understand it, and I wanted to give him a safe place. That's very hard. Yeah. And it was very, it was very hard to do so. In other words, I just, I tried to attune, I tried to set it up. I absolutely failed. There were times when I found stuff, I was like, I don't, I don't think I can take it this time.'cause I can't handle the lashback. Yeah. That I thought I would get.

Brenda: 38:04

Yeah.

Beth: 38:04

But then other times I would, and I became more, I became better and better at taking it. And then he'd come home and he'd say, seriously, that was like my favorite bong. And I would, I, I practiced being able to say, oh, literally, I'm sorry. I know those cost money. You know the rules. Yeah. It's not in our home. Yeah. And so I just, and it, it probably, it might seem like I've tried that, but it's like, but the thing is, is I wasn't trying to necessarily get him to stop. I was trying to follow my value system and just control what I could. Yes. That was the goal. The goal wasn't to stop him anymore. Yes. Which was hugely helpful and successful because guess what? I didn't stop him from doing it. But I did, I was able to feel like a parent and I was able to lean into what I was capable of and starting where I could and then getting better and better and practicing holding more and more space and, and just going back to connection, because that's truly what helps people out of addiction is the connection. Yes. And so I stopped shaming him for using, I just said it. Bummer. I'm We're bummer. A. We're bummer. We're here for it, kid. Yeah, but it's a bummer. And so I'm sorry you lost your stuff.

Brenda: 39:25

Yeah, but

Beth: 39:25

that's what we're doing here.

Brenda: 39:27

I so hard, so, so hard. But the, I think what I don't want anyone to miss is what you said about, I wasn't doing it to control him or get him to stop. I was doing it because it was my. Value system of saying, I don't want this in my house. I don't allow it in my house. You are gonna do what you wanna do. There's no way I can stop you putting anything into your body. What I can stop is having it in my home. So I think that is, yeah, critical distinction. Because what I see when parents are in this situation is, you know, I'm gonna take it and he's gonna finally stop. It's like, oh no, he's gonna get sneakier actually is Yeah, you'll teach him to get sneakier. Yes. If that's the attitude versus, wow, what a bummer. I know that those bongs are super expensive, you know? And the other thing I love about this approach about, because this is probably one of the number one topics that comes up in our community, is. They're still using in my house. They're still using in my house. We've set the rule, we say no using in the house, and they still using the house and it, it's just so common. And so setting up some boundaries like this is super important. And the, the knockoff effect of this is that if they have to use elsewhere, they can't use in your house so that it means they're gonna have to use elsewhere. That is a very good setup for natural consequences. Yeah. You feel caught as a parent, right? You feel terrible. Well, they're gonna have to go to the park, and if they're in the park, then there's gonna be the police or

Beth: 41:07

the whatever. Yeah. Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up too, because there's something that came to my mind is I. Thank goodness. Like seriously. Brenda, thank you so much for building a community for parents.'cause you built it outta desperation. I became a parent coach outta desperation because we were left basic. May I offer just completely alone? Yes. Figuring out what the hell we were supposed to do with our kiddos and our families. And, and so out of this, out of desperation, seriously, we, we became who we became. Yes. And so, one of my most. Desired. I guess, uh, reasons for doing this and even just coming on your podcast is, is, is talking about these hard things and helping parents, like, are you hearing this? This is happening in like 80, this is a total made up percentage by the way, but just as I'm feeling into my clients, at least 80% of the kiddos who are coming home from years of treatment are going back to using, yeah. And that doesn't mean treatment didn't work. They, I mean, my kiddo learned so many wonderful tools and treatment, helpful tools. I mean, he is so much emotionally farther ahead than any of his peers, which. Again, is its own problem. Yes. But yes. I just want the parents, I just want you guys to feel like we see you. We see you.

Brenda: 42:35

Well, it's why we're here and it's it also. And you have a podcast that I love. Wilder Parenting Post Wilderness. Thank you. So be please add that to your. Your playlist because it's not just wilderness. I, that's true. The business coach in me would almost tell you to change the name because,

Beth: 42:54

oh, thanks. We don't take that into consideration, especially now that wilderness, I don't, you know, most people know in the field that it's like, ugh, how many more wilderness programs are gonna close? So yes, there's changes. I could change it

Brenda: 43:04

for sure, but it is So just don't let that name deter you from listening. Correct. Because there is so much valuable information and best podcast. What breaks my heart is sometimes we'll have a new member join, or I'll meet somebody at an event or somewhere and they'll say, oh, I've been listening to your podcast for two years or three years. And I'll say, oh, how are things going? Oh, it's terrible, you know? Oh, and I think, oh gosh. This is why we are doing this. This is why, again, not a sexy, fun job. I mean, it's. It has, its, it has, it's so rewarding. It's fulfilling, but it's fulfilling. But we are putting this into the world for you to take advantage of. So take advantage of it. Don't, don't be in the desert like we were with, with no resources or so much now. Yeah. You mentioned autonomy and we talked a little bit about that, you know, trying to create some of that scaffolding that, that lets you pull your hands back a little bit. Let them try it. And there's another phrase that I hear in relation to this, which is we have to meet our kids where they are. And the thing I hear back from parents on that, and this is why I'm dying to get your take on it, is. I don't want them to stay where they are. They're like in the gutter, like metaphorically, right? I don't wanna meet them where they are. I wanna, I want to, well-meaning, I mean, this is not like, well I don't, you know, they're saying, no, I don't. No, I get it. I don't wanna go there because I don't want them there. I wanna show them that there's something more and something better and something different. Ugh. So I would

Beth: 44:45

love to get a hot take from you on this one. You know, there's, there's this interesting, I guess I'll call it a notion that we feel like if we meet somebody where they're at, they will stay there.

Brenda: 44:57

Hmm. Like, that's

Beth: 44:58

what will keep them there. Right. But that is so far from the truth, so far from the truth. It's so funny 'cause I know Exactly. I remember feeling that as a parent. I do like back in the day. I do, I re remember feeling that like, but. You know what ha, what coming to mind is that for Brene Brown, she talks about empathy. Yes. Do you remember that? It's like, I think it's a YouTube video. Yeah. And it's like if, if your kiddo's down the well and you're like, Hey, come on up outta there, you're like sunny up here. It's like so unhelpful. Yes. Yes. But if we can go down and, and literally crawl down in the hole, that doesn't, okay. This is the tricky part. That doesn't mean that. You as the parent are utterly depressed. It doesn't mean that you become depressed, right? Let's say your kiddo's depressed and in the hole,

Brenda: 45:52

right?

Beth: 45:53

That's not what it means. It means you're climbing down into the hole do, and you're sitting and you're saying, I see that this is extremely hard. I can see that you are depressed. I just want you to know I'm here for it. Anyway, my youngest is nine. Okay. And I promise this translates, he came home the other day. Ugh. I might start to cry. And he is like, I don't have any friends. He just, it's summer. He went to this like STEM camp, you know? Yeah. Which is awesome. Yeah. But he's like, mom, I don't have any friends. There's no one there. No one likes me. And I just like, ugh. And what I wanted to say was, well, of course you have friends, honey. Of course you do. Like, this is gonna be fine. Just go tomorrow, da da da. No. I said, can I lay by you? He said, yeah. And I just, I literally cried and I said, it's so hard to feel like there's no one there for you. Huh? He's like, yeah, it's really hard. I feel so alone. I said, I have felt alone too. I feel alone sometimes too. I said, can I hold you? And he, of course, I mean, we we're very touchy feely. And he's like, could you stay with me for a while? I said, I would be happy to. And I said, Hey, kiddo. Lonely is a real tough feeling and I'm here for it. No, I was not always like that. I was not always so smart, and I swear I fail constantly. Yeah. But I just have to show that in that moment I was like, he does not me need me to talk him out of feeling like he has no friends. Right. That's not what he needs. Right. He needs me to sit with him in his loneliness. Yes. That's what he needed. Yes. And it's so hard to know. I, it's taken me so long to figure this one out and somehow I have a nine year-old that I can practice my new skills on. Yes. That, that's the difference, is I am not agreeing that he has no friends. Correct. But I'm correct. Yes. What I'm saying is, is I've been lonely. Before too. I know what it feels like to belong and, and, and you're probably, you, maybe the, maybe the audience is thinking, well, I don't know what it's like to, to be addicted to something. They're not asking you to lean into their addiction. They're asking you to lean into like feeling alone or feeling like they don't belong or feeling stupid or feeling like they hate their life, so they wanna disappear. That's what they're. That's what they want you to feel along with. It's the feeling, yes. Not the action, not the words. Not the thoughts. Not the assumptions. Yes. It's the feeling.

Brenda: 48:35

Can I get an amen to that, that that, yes, that absolutely perfectly summed that up. I love the visual idea. If you're struggling with this, think about that. Looking down into the, well, going down the ladder, and then also I think it's important. When you're down there and you're connecting around what they're feeling, not their behaviors to say, Hey, look, there's a ladder. Yeah. If you ever, if you ever wanna check it out, I would love to help in whatever way I can, right? Yes. And they may decide to climb the ladder themselves. They may go up two rungs and then like, oh, nope, that's too scary. That doesn't feel good. And they go back down. But meeting them, I think that's a great visual for meeting them where they are. And you know, I remember sitting, having fun with my son so many times when he was homeless, you know, like living kind of on a boat during his addiction you know, bouncing around and he looked. Bad. Like he would be the kid you would see at a thaw restaurant and go, oh, what is wrong with him? Like, he looked terrible'cause it was terrible. And ha And sitting there with him, I just, I I, that came to mind when you were talking about sitting at the bottom of the, well, like that was our bottom of the well sitting at a far restaurant. I just said, if you're sober, I would love to take you to lunch. Let's go get some food. And it was very awkward. We didn't often, didn't really talk about a lot, and, but we were there together and he still remembers those days, you know? Mm-hmm. Now that he's, yeah. 9, 8, 8 years in recovery, so yeah. That's, that's a big one. Well, we can, I'm so glad you shared that. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. It's, and it's tough because I felt like at one point that that would. Keep him there. Like, well, if I go, yes, if I go have dinner with him or if I go take him to Safeway and get him some food that he could put in his backpack, I am, I am enabling. I am keeping him where he is. Yes, yes, yes. And now I really see like, no, I was saying you're a human being. I love you. Yeah. I don't want you to stay where you are, but I will meet you there. Help you see that there's different, different options to this.

Beth: 51:14

Yeah. Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you said that. I just, yeah, that if you have a, if you have a boundary, right? Let, for an example like I only eat lunch with you if you're sober. Okay, great. But leaning into whenever, like you said, like whenever. Like, yeah, I'll only, I'll only eat lunch with you're sober. Like really leaning into that and, and connecting as much as you can in that scaffolding, in that structure. Mm-hmm. And I know that's what you're saying, but I just wanna say it again. It's so important. I had some clients call me the other day, they're like, well, we told them if they check themselves out's a young adult, they check themselves out, we wouldn't pay for their housing. And I said, okay. Then don't pay for their housing. I said, they're like, but she's hungry. I'm like, did you say you weren't gonna pay for their food? And they're like, well, no. I'm like, then go buy her some groceries. Yeah. Like, it's okay. So, right. You wanna follow through with the scaffolding you made. And by the way, scaffolding gets up and taken down and it moves and it, it has to be fluid, not day by day. Please don't do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but every six to eight weeks, like really check your scaffolding and think like, wait a second, am I in integrity with myself still?

Brenda: 52:33

Mm-hmm.

Beth: 52:34

That kind of thing. But I just wanted to say, yeah, I, I love that idea of just connecting where you can and just like you're saying, like going down into the, the well of like, Hey, this is, yeah. This is how I can show, show up for you and stay in my integrity and this is how I can't. Yes. Because I'm not willing to, to do that.

Brenda: 52:51

Yeah. And, and I wanna clarify that the reason I said. If you're sober was not that I was trying to create him being sober, it was because it was too painful for me to see him zand out high, slurring his words, droopy eyes. Like I couldn't, I wasn't embarrassed of it. I, it was not that it was, that it was too painful for my mama heart Yeah. To sit and watch him in that state. So I was not saying. If you're sober to control his sobriety. That was not the goal. It was to protect myself and my values and my heart and you know, if he was the guy who could show up a little high on some weed and he was happy, maybe that would've been okay for me. Like that. That's what you're saying is that scaffolding looks different for everybody? Yes, but I knew what. Not being sober looked like for him at that point. And at that point it was too painful for me to see. And so just wanted to clarify that, that it, that was not a controlling movement. Great. Yeah. No, that's

Beth: 53:57

helpful for so many people, right? Ugh, so helpful.

Brenda: 54:00

Yeah. Yeah. Well, Beth, we would, and we have talked for days at times when we're together, so we will wrap it up, but definitely please. Get your podcast machine out. Well, I guess you already have it out'cause you're listening to this, but go find, go find best Podcast Parenting Post Wilderness Beth Hellman coaching. Is that your website? Just beth hellman coaching.com.

Beth: 54:24

Yep. It sure is. Yeah.

Brenda: 54:25

Awesome. You bet. Yeah.

Beth: 54:26

Come and find me. Email me.

Brenda: 54:28

We'll put it in the show notes. And also, Beth works with us in the stream and we're very fortunate to have her lead workshops and classes. And so that's just another benefit. If you're, if you're the listener who's been out there for a couple of years, you're like, oh, wow, I get that

Beth: 54:45

kind of help when I'm in there. Yes, you do. Yes you do. Yes you do. Come to the workshop. Yes. Come to upstream,

Brenda: 54:51

you, and you've got workshops going on, so make sure get to her website because she. Beth, you don't just do coaching, you also do workshops and all that kind of stuff. Absolutely.

Beth: 54:59

I do. I do private group workshops. I speak at parent places.

Brenda: 55:06

All the things. All the things. She's one of us, so That's

Beth: 55:09

right. Well, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Brenda: 55:14

Okay, my friend. If you want the transcript or the show notes and resources from this episode, just go to our website, hope Stream community.org, and click podcast. That'll take you to all things podcast related. We even have a start here playlist that we created, so if you're new here, be sure to check that out. Also, if you're feeling anxious and confused about how to approach your child's substance use. We have got a free ebook for you. It's called Worried Sick, A Compassionate Guide for Parents of Teens and Young Adults Misusing Drugs and Alcohol. It'll introduce you to ways that you can build connection and relationship with your child versus distancing and letting them hit rock bottom. It is a game changer and it's totally free. Just go to Hope Stream community.org/worried to download that. You are amazing my friend. You are such an elite level parent. It is an honor to be here with you and please know you're not doing this alone. You've got this tribe and you will be okay sending all my love and light and I will meet you right back here next week.