Building Sustainable Family Connections: The ‘On the Grid’ Approach, with Jen Murphy

ABOUT THE EPISODE:

Jen Murphy was working with a group of therapeutic outfitters when she had the idea to offer “on the grid” 4-5 day family intensives.  The program was already providing family therapy on 10-day backcountry expeditions - which can be a great option for some. But she noticed a need for families to receive the same intensive therapeutic service in a shorter timeframe, and in a more private and comfortable setting.

As a therapist, this unique model made perfect sense to her and she felt it may lead to more sustainable outcomes. After all, the work of rebuilding trust and repairing family dynamics is often uncomfortable. Why not have a physically comfortable environment to do it in?

In response to the demand, Jen created Altitude Family Coaching where she does individual and family coaching and intensives. While the family is usually based in an AirBnb or vacation home, the days are full of experiences that involve natural beauty and supportive experiential-based activities that create opportunities for healing, understanding, on-the-spot coaching and ultimately, growth.

In this episode, Jen and I discuss how family intensives work, the biggest issues her clients face, the sticky work of rebuilding trust and why “over-functioning” makes for an unhealthy family dynamic.

EPISODE RESOURCES:

• Jen’s website:
• Phone and email: 970-871-1231, jmurphyfamcoach@gmail.com

H.O.M.E. Strategies for Making Home a Success During and After Treatment - buy here

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Transcript

Jen: 0:01

One of the areas is how we as moms tend to over function and, and the reality is, is that when anyone over functions in a relationship, it only leaves the other person to under function. It is just how it works. So it doesn't matter if it's a parent child, if it's a, you know, a, a spouse relationship, if it's a colleague relationship, if one person over functions, then the other person will just be left to under function. And so that in itself is something that gets pointed out all the time when I'm with families.

Brenda: 0:44

Welcome to Hope Stream, the podcast and community created specifically for parents of teens and young adults who are misusing substances and struggling with mental health. I'm Brenda Zane, and I have been in your shoes with a child who was addicted to a high risk lifestyle and all the bad things that came with it. Listen, every week to gain clarity and understanding. Learn new skills and best of all experience, real hope for what might feel like a helpless situation. We want you to not just survive this experience, but potentially find unexpected growth and meaning through it. You are not doing this alone anymore, and we're so glad you're here. After the episode, hop over to hopes dream community.org for more resources. Hi friend. It's good to be back with you and spend some time connecting around our very special families. A few episodes back, Kathy, who is the co-founder of Hope Stream, and my sometimes co-host mentioned that the parents who listened to this podcast and who joined our private online community are quote unquote SEAL team parents. And that's kind of taken on a life of its own in our community, which is fun to see. I think that's because it resonates so intensely. So of course, not being really familiar with anything military related, I had to look up what the SEAL teams do and take a listen to this. My friend among the seal's main functions are conducting small unit special operation missions in maritime, jungle, urban, arctic mountainous, and desert environments. Seals gather intelligence behind enemy lines. SEAL team personnel are hand selected, highly trained, and highly proficient in unconventional warfare, including direct action and special reconnaissance among other tasks like sabotage, demolition, intelligence, gathering, training, and advising friendly militaries or other forces. That pretty much sums up what you do regularly, so it's official. If you're a Hope Stream member or a loyal listener, you are an official SEAL team parent. I have a special guest today whom I've known for about five years. Jen Murphy is the co-author of the book and Parenting model home, HOME. Strategies for making home a success during and after treatment. It is a must read for anyone navigating the transition of a young person who is returning home from a treatment setting. Jen is a mental health therapist, a family coach, and importantly, a parent of teens herself that probably gives her the most credibility of all right. She has been supporting families in the treatment modalities of wilderness therapy, residential treatment. Private practice and transitional programming. Over the last 25 years, Jen has developed and implemented two nationally recognized and currently operating transition and parent support programs, and has been an adjunct professor of social sciences for over 14 years. Jen currently provides family and parent coaching support virtually and through in-person intensives. Her focus is on helping families find their way at home by learning new skills and creating positive patterns that will help shift the entire family system. I specifically wanted to talk with Jen about the family intensives that she does, because I'm always on the lookout for something different and something specifically designed to bring families together and to do work that heals broken or ruptured relationships. We talked about the most common issues that families struggle with, like figuring out individual roles once a young person comes home from treatment. How to rebuild trust. The always challenging topic of communication and the control issue, or as Jen so much more eloquently, puts it the tendency to over-function. We also touch on processing speed. Very important, but possibly overlooked dynamic that exists between people and has a huge impact on how we relate to each other. It was very eye-opening for me because I recognized myself and my relationship with my husband, as Jen was explaining this. Very powerful. I'm excited to share this episode. If you wanna get in touch with Jen after listening, you can go to the show notes for her website and email. Those are@hopestreamcommunity.org. And then just click on podcast. So take a listen now to an enlightening conversation. With Jen Murphy, enjoy. Jen, welcome back. It's awesome to be able to talk with you today for a little bit about all things families. Right. Hi. Thanks for having me. You're like family, family, family, right? Yeah. So important. It's so, so important. So we were just chatting that this is your third time on the podcast, but your first time solo 'cause you sort of have branched out on your own, which is really exciting. Right. But also still working with like the home book and we'll go, we'll go into all of that. Yeah. I don't know how many times a week I send. The Amazon link to your home book. Oh, nice. To somebody. Thanks. Because it's just that period of time of like, oh my gosh, my kid is coming home. Right? It's so scary. It's like that exciting feeling, but so scary and all that. So anyway, it's great to see you. When when we connected and I learned what you were doing, I really wanted to. Have you on, because what I'm seeing, and I'd love to just, I'd love to hear kind of what you're seeing, but what we see, you know, we hover over several hundred parents who are in every stage of this madness. Mm-hmm. And you know, there's been some changes in the industry as far as insurance availability, and I'm really seeing an emphasis which is so great on neurodiversity and autism, so many like

Jen: 7:25

mm-hmm.

Brenda: 7:26

Specialized programs for that and. Big focus on mental health, which is great. And so when I heard what you're doing, which is kind of different with on the grid, and we're gonna talk about what that means because I think that's super cool. It just made me think like, I rewind back to 2013 when our family was in crisis and I don't feel like we had this many. Like people weren't being as creative, I don't feel like. Right. Maybe they were and I was just, you know, too freaked out to see it. Mm-hmm. But what's going on in your world? Like, what are you seeing with the families that you're working with? Mm-hmm. What's going on?

Jen: 8:05

Right. Well, I'm still doing, you know, I still do a lot of transitions support for families with Hillary, you know, in Solutions Parenting Support, which she actually has just rebranded to Solutions Family Support. So I still do a ton of parenting work. So families who are transitioning home from treatment environments or you know, for me in particular, families who you know, who potentially are wanting to get some support while they have, you know, a child in treatment. So I can still do that. So I'm still doing a lot of work with solutions and then in, in supporting Hillary and her rebranding of. Solutions to solutions Family support? Yeah. I mean, I think it's still, you know, the same if you will, right? Like we still have, you know, treatment opportunities we have, as you're saying, we have more treatment opportunities and parents are getting more opportunity in the sense to see, you know, what. What's getting covered, you know, through insurance and, but I, I still think we're, you know, we're in this position where, you know, some families really need a significant amount of out of home support. Right. And so we can still rely on our wilderness industry, you know, at least in my opinion. I think it's still, you know, it's, it's the, it's the industry that's saving lives. Right? It is. And so I know it's just, that's what it is. It's saving lives. So what I'm doing in regards to doing more family work and you know, kind of on the ground family work, you know, that's for the families who don't need that, you know, type of intensive treatment, right? Like where the young person themselves doesn't need, you know, this specific amount or the significant amount of treatment. And families can either come together to heal, you know, from rupture. Or they're coming together to continue the work that they've already been investing in. But yeah, I do, I mean, I think there's a lot of opportunity and and I'm just hopeful that families are still taking advantage of it and are not, you know, drowning in the, the challenges that they're facing.

Brenda: 10:02

No matter what, you know, decade it is, you're still gonna have the breakdowns in communication. A lot of times anger, right? We see, at least in our community, we see kids who are really angry for a variety of reasons. You know, you see a lot of the same family dynamics, whether it was, you know, 2001 or 2025. It's that whole family dynamic that's so hard to keep healthy, I think through. Some mental health challenges or through some substance use, even if it's just experimentation, because the ripple effect on the family is so huge, whether that's the parents or the siblings or you know, grandparents or whoever it is, it's, it's so tricky. So when I heard that you're doing these on the grid. Family Intensivess. I was very intrigued. So talk a little bit about what that is and and where kind of the gap that you saw in, in wanting to step in in this. Right.

Jen: 11:06

Well I, you know, in addition to the work that I'm doing with parents and, you know, and specifically helping them transition their kids home from treatment environments I just wanted to do more family work. Like I wanted to be in it with families. The idea for me, I've been doing, you know, 25 years of, of treatment, which where a lot of my work is on the phone with parents. Yeah, yeah. Right. And a ton of my work is on the phone with parents. And when I was in the field, you know, clearly I was there working with the young people, but still doing a ton of phone work. And I just had the opportunity to do more phone work with families where it was just an opportunity I was given through a couple clients that needed some. Family work, family coaching to be done. And that just led me to, you know, just be in this space of like, wow, I wanna really get in there again, right? Like, I wanna physically be there with families. I wanna do the work with them, I wanna participate with them, and I wanna teach them, you know, in regards to how we can repair, how we can strengthen relationships, how we can have better communication, and how we can have fun. And how we can laugh and how we can find that space with each other again. And so so I initially started doing that work with breakwater Expeditions. So they're an outfitter. They're the, the, the therapeutic outfitter, right? And so we had families who were reaching out who wanted to do these, you know, family trips or family intensivess, but they didn't want to, go on the, you know, the 10 day back country trip, right? They wanted to do something different. They wanted probably to do something that was a little bit more comfortable for them, which made a lot of sense to me. As much as I appreciate, and, you know, I, I love the outdoors from a therapeutic sense. I think there, there is a necessity to have a little bit of comfort, you know, when we're doing such uncomfortable work sometimes, right? Yeah. And the other big piece for me, for this on the grid, which really means like having a home. Like, so we're, we're renting a, a Airbnb. Some people are using their vacation homes that they have, right? So we're using a home, which is the on the grid approach. And then we're bringing the adventure and the outdoors into the experience. And then we get to come back to our nice home and have dinner and sleep and, you know, do all the things that we would do there. But the idea too, for me was also about sustainability. And I think that's always been a foundation of the work that I've done, which is how can I help families sustain all the work that they're investing in? And whether they're investing in outpatient therapy, or they're investing in wilderness, or they're investing in any sort of treatment, how can I help them sustain it? How can I help them keep moving forward in all of this work? And so for me, the idea of sustaining, which is, you know, could a family go back on a 10 day backcountry trip? Sure. Not many are gonna go back to sustain that work. But if I could bring five or six experiences into a four or five day intensive with them, then they have a better chance of sustaining that. They're gonna go back to their vacation home and do all those fun things we did, or we're gonna be able to find something similar in their home that they live in full time. And we can create that and bring that to them. So that sustainability piece was really important to me. Like, how do we have this environment? How do we bring in the outdoors, bring in the adventure, bring in the fun, and sustain it for, you know, months and years later.

Brenda: 14:24

I like that model because you're right, you're, there's so much going on that you almost just need like a, a calm. Stable safe home base to come to right when there's so much happening and you know, I just know from experience that fun. Like got put on the back burner for so long. Right, right.'cause you're just trying to like solve this problem. And even then if they're in treatment, you're still sort of like there's this level of intensity and fun just really got pushed aside. And so I think a very important to have fun. So it sounds like this would be, you know, a mixture of like therapy with the FA family therapy, but also fun and also that. You're seeing as the therapist, you would be seeing all the dynamics of the family. In a real world situation, you're not right. You're not on a, you know, out in the woods somewhere. You may be at somewhere where the family's interacting with other people, and I'm sure you're, you're eyes are tr and ears are trained to be like, oh yes, exactly. Oh, mm-hmm. I see what's going on. Right.

Jen: 15:32

Right. Exactly. That's a great way to put it, because that's exactly what happens. So if we are doing something that's out there in the public, or we're doing some activity, or we're making dinner together at home, right? Like all of those things are happening where I am, you know, kind of honing in on like, okay, where, where do we need to take this and what can we use? And one of the things that I think is so interesting, so the majority of the intentions that I've done, I've stayed with the family, we've stayed with the family and it's been amazing. Like really amazing, like having the opportunity to be a part of just like the relaxed time and having an opportunity to be there to. Be in it, you know, with the family as they are trying to, you know, learn new skills and repair relationships and, you know, and make the shifts that they're desiring. So I don't always have to stay with a family, but every family that I've stayed with has said that that's been one of, you know, the number one. Areas of change that we were able to achieve so quickly. One example I have of a, a family where I was getting up, Angie and I who is with Breakwater and she, you know, is my co-facilitator and we were getting up every morning to do a sunrise hike. Just the two of us, just our own self-care, right? And then after a couple days, the mom started joining us. And so then we had this opportunity to like have this therapeutic experience with her to almost help her set herself up for the day of all the things that we were gonna be doing and all the conversations and the things that she wanted to change and how she wanted to show up differently. And so we just got these really organic opportunities that that I think really bring. The change that I'm looking for in these intensives is that yes, it's, it's planned and yes, it's catered, if you will, but there's a lot of organic change that's happening because of opportunities like that.

Brenda: 17:27

Totally, totally. Well, family, especially in the case of treatment, you know, the family roles all change, right? Because like in our family, my son was sort of, you know, like the entire family orbited around his. Craziness and his outbursts and all of that. And so then if that person comes back and they're now not. The center of the orbit, then everybody's thrown off like, whoa, what is my role now? So are you, do you see that? Do you kind of help them understand like, oh,

Jen: 18:02

everything's different? Right. Well, and also the idea, I think like you used the word orbit, and I would also use the word adjust. Right? Like you were adjusting, you know, and, and a lot of that adjustment becomes really unhealthy. Yes. And so I think when, when I think about when I'm in. When I'm in it with a family, like everyone's making adjustments, but I'm trying to ensure that all those adjustments are healthy, right? So sure we do have to adjust to certain personalities or we have to adjust to certain, you know, conflicts or we have to adjust to just challenges that we're having. But those adjustments can be. Productive adjustments, they can be healthy adjustments, right? So how do we, how do we acknowledge that we're all adjusting, but how do we maybe adjust, pivot with Grace A. Little bit more versus adjusting in that really destructive way?

Brenda: 18:49

Yeah, yeah. You don't wanna go from one level of dysfunction to a different level of Right. Of sort of dysfunctional relationship.'cause that's so easy to do. You know, especially we see a lot of our moms, and I'm sure you see this, have this incredible. Desire and need to control

Jen: 19:09

mm-hmm. To

Brenda: 19:09

control the outcome, to control the number of tattoos, to control the, you know, the, like the school or the, it's just, it's so difficult and they're doing it out of love. Right. It's not the, and so you don't want to then shift to something that could, could potentially be. This, you know, as dysfunctional, it just looks different, like it's got a different wrapper around it. What are some of the I'm just curious. Like I would love to be a fly on the wall when you're doing these things. Right? Right. What are some of the typical sort of relationship. Tangles that you see, that you're untangling as you're like,

Jen: 19:53

oh, okay, I see what's going on. Right. Well, you, you really just identified one is you used the word control and, and I would use the word over-functioning, right? So moms typically including myself. Right. And I think that's the piece too, like. I've always spoken collectively in my work with parents. Yes. Me, and then when I get to do family work with them, like I'm just there. I'm just me. Right. Yeah. And I'm talking collectively at times, but I'm also doing a lot of teaching at times and, and one of the areas is how we as moms tend to over-function and, and the reality is, is that when anyone over functions in a relationship, it only leaves the other person to under function. It's just how it works. So it doesn't matter if it's a parent child, if it's a, you know, a, a spouse relationship, if it's a colleague relationship, if one person over functions, then the other person will just be left to under function. And so that. Itself is something that gets pointed out all the time when I'm with families, right? Who's the over-functioner, who's under-functioning, and how can we balance that out? And what does it look like, you know? And sometimes that, you know, it looks like we're shifting that because we're having real conversations about it, real deep conversations. And sometimes we're shifting it because I'm participating in an activity like making dinner and watching the over-functioning take place. And watching how the other people are responding to that. So that would be a fly on the wall, like, oh. So that's how we shift that. That's how we bring notice to it. We identify why it's happening and we start to quickly identify the importance of changing it, right? And how we can change it right there in the moment. Like how we can shift it so the over functioner can see like, huh? Like, wow, I don't have to, and this is what happens when I

Brenda: 21:45

don't. You would get to engage in that dialogue, like, okay, so your mom's doing this. How does that make you feel? Or Right. You know, your dad is, is trying to do this. How does that mm-hmm. Impact what you're doing Because I, I do, I know it's so hard, especially when your kid is not functioning at a hundred percent, whether that's mm-hmm. For whatever reason it is. Right. You just naturally sort of jump in there into that and it's so hard to. Step back and let them work it through. So I could imagine how like the on the spot ability to step in and just say, okay, time out. Like let's look at, let's look at what's going on here. Would be so helpful. Is it hard to, 'cause I could also imagine that that could be, I'm thinking of me as a mom who might sometimes over-function, how that could be a little uncomfortable to have somebody. Kind of call me out on what I'm doing in the moment in front of my kid or in front of my partner. Right. What is that like? Right, right.

Jen: 22:49

Well, I think, you know, to step back, there's a lot of prep work going into the intensive, so I'm doing a lot of work with the family prior to, and especially a lot of parent work. So understanding exactly what the dynamics are. So, so everyone's aware of what we're there to focus on. Like, so it's not a surprise that we're there to focus on the potential over functioning or the controlling and how that's impacting the family system. Nothing is a surprise there in regards to what we're there to focus on. But the surprises, I think are the quick. Relief that everyone experiences with how quickly we can make those changes and how quickly we can get back to a little bit more of the the fun and the love and the connection, right? Because we need all of those things to be able to work through the hard stuff. Yeah. And many families, you know, as, you know, lose that part. Right. So we lose it. And so. Then we're just in this cyclical, you know, stumbling all over ourselves, trying to, trying to find that space again. So no big surprises in regards to what we're there to manage and what we're there to talk about or change. But I think it's relief. That's probably the biggest surprise. Like the relief of like, oh yeah, like I don't have to be the planner, right? Like I can say. Well, when I don't plan, who's gonna pick it up? And then we get to see, okay, who's willing to pick it up and, and what are they willing to pick up in regards to helping the family stay in that space of connection? Yeah. Stay in that space of, of trying to have fun together. You know, and trying to show that, that love that they do have for each other. So it has been interesting, I would say, you know, is there conflict? Sure. But it's all manageable conflict. It's all, okay, let's communicate differently. Right? It's back to like, let's identify feelings and then learn how to articulate them, right? Let's, you know, live in that way of communication and being able to kind of direct that has just, again, I think relief would be the, the biggest feeling I think that a lot of families are experiencing. Yeah, I

Brenda: 24:52

could definitely see that because it's like there's, having somebody there would be like a, a buffer. Mm-hmm. I like, in my mind, I, I could visualize like you're standing there and you're sort of that buffer between what would be potentially a big blow up or the eye roll or the slamming the door. Right. And it's like you can catch that and deal with it in the moment. Right.

Jen: 25:19

And that would be so powerful. To add to what you were saying, I think it's also the young person that gets that opportunity too. Like that young person gets the opportunity to be like, C Gen, what am I supposed to do now? Right. So that has been really inspiring is the word I wanna say. Like to be able to jump in to be like, I think I can have an answer here for you. Like, let's figure this out. Let's figure out how do we do it? How do we. Respond to your, your mom or your dad. You know, in this moment when you're frustrated and you're throwing your hands in the air, right? Yeah. Because everyone's throwing their hands in the air.

Brenda: 25:58

Yeah, because it's, it's so hard, even if you have tools, so you know if Right, your kid went to treatment Yep. And you've been, maybe you're in hope, dream, you're right. Like you're doing your work or you're working with a parent coach. It's that in the moment, right? That it's like all those things just fly out the window. Like, oh, I know I have a tool for this. But you know, sometimes the emotions are too high or you forget that and you forget to pause and you forget, like, and then, so having somebody there. To just slow it all down, right? Catch the, the, whatever the conflict is and be able to then, you know, I just love your style. Like I can just see, 'cause you're so calm and cool, it's like, oh, maybe you could try this. Right? It would just be like having that, you know, like having your coach in your pocket would be so cool. I love that.

Jen: 26:50

Yeah. And that's exactly what it is. And I think that, you know, some families initially, like there's that awkwardness, which of course right, you're just getting to know someone. But, it's pretty quick that that awkwardness goes away. And there's this again, because we, we've done so much work to prepare for it of like, okay, how are we gonna dive in? And, but that goes back to that sustainability piece. Like not only am I investing in sustaining, you know, the, the fun and the adventure and like you can go back to your vacation home or you can go back. To, you know that VRBO that we rented two hours away from your main house? Yeah. Right. Like we can, you can go back there and, and, and hopefully with going back there just to engage in those activities brings about. All the other things that we did and those reminders. But I would also say the reminders of the conversations are there too. So I do integration sessions after the intensive, and there's often the, Hey, remember when we were standing in the kitchen and Jen said we should. Right? Yeah. Or remember when we were doing this or we had this conversation. So those things are happening too. And again, I think it's because we're just there in the moment all the time. Just being real.

Brenda: 28:09

Hey, friend, can I tell you something? If you're a mom navigating the heartbreaking, confusing journey of loving a child who struggles with substance misuse and mental health, I see you. I really do. When my family was in the deepest, darkest place, I felt completely alone. I was terrified, exhausted, and had no roadmap. That's exactly why we created Hope Dream. The community and support I wish we'd had years ago. The Stream membership isn't just another program that will tell you to let go or use tough love. It's a lifeline, a place where you'll find real women who truly understand, who won't judge you and who will walk beside you with compassion. We've curated resources, built an airtight private community, not on Facebook, and created a space where you can breathe, learn, and start healing, not just for your child, but for yourself. Because you matter. Your journey matters. If you're ready to feel supported, understood, and empowered, join us in the stream. We can't wait to welcome you. Visit Hope Stream community.org to learn more and join us today. I had a question for you about rebuilding trust. Okay. Because I think it's so difficult. When there's been a lot of conflict, right, and you know, well, there's gonna be that with any teenager, let alone a teenager who's struggling, or a young adult who's struggling with mental health and substance use or whatever it is. And I think it's very hard for parents to know because you've potentially been hearing a lot of untruths or exaggerations or omissions for so long. I guess I'm thinking of maybe in a setting where the, the young person's coming home from treatment or maybe they've been doing a PHP or something. What are your thoughts on how parents can start to rebuild some trust when it's just been a obliterated?

Jen: 30:36

Right, right. It's such a good question. It's, you know, it's one of the traps we talk about in the, in our book home, right? The trust trap, because it, it is a trap and I, and I think. I wanna, I'm gonna hone back in on your word rebuild because I do think it's so important. Like we have to move forward in strengthening relationships, repairing them, rebuilding trust, right? Like we, if we're not moving forward in that direction, then, then we're not getting the change. Like no change that was made in any sort of treatment environment is gonna be sustained if a family system can't move forward in strengthening and repairing and rebuilding. And at the same time, I do wanna say that, that I truly believe trust is one of the biggest traps that parents fall into. And I think it's probably because of the discomfort of being able to say out loud, like, I don't trust you. Right? And so. For me, I think that's really the number one piece of parents being able to just sit in that discomfort and acknowledge like, okay, it's okay. Like right now I just don't trust you. Or, you know, in, in this area my trust is limited, but in this area I. I have a ton of trust for you. Right. And so, and I, and I think that piece is important for us to do as parents as well, which is to really identify, you know, where are the columns of trust and what's in the column that, that there isn't trust yet. And we're still needing to do a lot of work to rebuild that. But I think in regards to, to the rebuilding piece, I think it happens when we strengthen relationships and when we're real about the fact that. Yeah, like right now, the trust just isn't there, or at least in this particular area, the trust isn't there and our relationship and how you are showing up, how I'm showing up, right? Like having that change and having markers that show us like, okay, change is happening. Then it allows us to move into considering. Having trust again, or considering opening up a little bit to, you know, to take the risk

Brenda: 32:38

Yeah.

Jen: 32:38

To have a little bit of trust and to give in areas that maybe we wouldn't have because of the trust, uh, because of the impact of the lack of trust. But I, I do think the number one is parents having to get comfortable saying like, yep, I don't, I don't trust you right now in this area, and I hope I can get there.

Brenda: 32:58

Yeah, I like that a lot because it kind of contains the lack of trust versus it's just like a blanket, right? I don't trust anything about you. What you're saying is in this particular area, we're gonna need to work on

Jen: 33:11

it. Yeah. And to think about, because that's relationship, right? Like, I mean. I think it's probably pretty rare that relationships are a hundred percent trustworthy. Yes. Right? Like, and so, and, and for sometimes for, you know, things that really aren't that important. But if we really had to, you know, if we look at like Brene Brown's work and, you know, and, and all the, you know, the elements of trust, like, it's pretty rare that relationships will hit every element of trust. But I think when, you know, for parenting, for example, like with my with even my oldest teenager around his phone use, you know, for example, I will say to him, I do trust how he shows up on the internet. I do, I have a, a ton of trust in him. He has shown he can show up on the internet in really healthy ways. I have almost zero trust in him and his ability to manage his amount of time on the internet. So I manage the time with him as far as how much time he has on his device. And so that's a great separation. Like here's an area I actually have a lot of trust and it's a really cool part of our relationship, and here's an area that. It's just not, I'm not willing to take the risk. Well, and that's a

Brenda: 34:21

great example. First of all, because almost every parent struggles with the phone and device time. But it's a really good example because it's, it's within the same topic. It's like even within the topic of your phone, I. There's a part of that that I do trust and a part that I don't. Yeah. Because we all wanna hear something good. Right, right. Like, I want, I wanna hear that I'm doing well on this part of it, and that I still have to work on this part of it. That's, that's really, really helpful. You know, it took me a long time to rebuild trust with my son, and I didn't, I just stumbled through it. I didn't have any of this sort of language or. Or even the ability to start like di doing that dissection.

Jen: 35:04

Well, I think the stumbling happens too for the adult, especially in an adult child or even an adult young adult relationship, which is as adults, you and I know trust isn't black and white, which is why we stumble. Yeah. But we are. I think we are forced in relationship with our young people to believe it's black and white. Yes. Right. Because our young people can come to us and say, I can't believe you. Don't trust me. It's just this broad statement, right? Like, and we're in our minds like, well wait, but I trust you here, but no, I don't trust you to go out and do this. And so I think we all just have to have more of a conversation as a family system to say, well, one trust isn't black and white. Like, it's not across the board. And I think if we're more authentic around that conversation as parents, it, it really. Brings about a really loving, fun relationship in the areas that we can trust

Brenda: 36:02

and dial those up. Right? I, yeah, we dial 'em

Jen: 36:04

up. It's real. It feels good. Yeah. And then I think we stand stronger and our kids can live in more of this authentic place with us, which is like, huh, I get it. I get why she doesn't trust my time on the internet, but she's giving me a lot of affirmations for how I'm showing up because I'm proving it over and over. Right, right.

Brenda: 36:23

Besides the phone and devices and gaming what are some of the other common things that you are working with families like when you're in that? I. Environment, you're in a home with them. What are some of the common things that you're seeing kind of over and over, like these are the, these are the ones that are typically tripping families up the most.

Jen: 36:43

Communication is still number one. Communication, no matter, you know, how much treatment experience, we all forget in the moment how to communicate. Right. You know? What would be an example of that?'cause I think communication can be really broad. I think using imperatives, right? Like you should do that, right? Like this implied even imperative that you're supposed to think a certain way or you should feel a certain way. So I think the implied imperatives of what we should and should not be thinking or feeling, I think the the, still the lack of ability to really identify emotions, right? Mm-hmm. Like what is it that I'm feeling? And when we don't start there about trying to really identify emotions, then we can't articulate it. You know, and so yeah, we're doing a lot of then which is my, my soapbox to the world, right? Which is, you know, we're doing a lot of, I feel that, or I feel when, you know, and I'm in there like, but you can't feel that or you can't feel when, like, let's really talk about what you feel. Right. And it's a, it's hard for people to, it really pull out of the, I feel that, or I feel when, or I feel if, you know, but in, you know, when I'm with them in the moment I'm in there like, Nope, we can't feel if. And they're like, uh, and I'm like, but we can't, we cannot feel if we cannot feel that. We cannot feel when, or I feel like you Exactly. YZ and it's like, no, that's not right. Exactly. Exactly. So it's really just getting down in there to to, to learn again, like how do we identify emotions? And a lot of times, this is an interesting piece, especially if we've had a young person who has had some treatment experience, it's, they're usually the stronger of the whole system. Right. In being able to identify emotions 'cause they've been in an environment that's forced them to identify a real emotion. Yeah. Right. So I think communication in that way is probably number one. Right. And quieting that, not only quieting it down. In the sense of it doesn't have to be conflict but just practicing it all the time. So if I think about, if I'm with a family for, you know, four days in an intensive, you know, that's probably happening within the first few hours for We're starting to talk about that. Yeah, it's happening organically. I'm starting to talk about it. I'm teaching it. So now it's just a part of the four days. Right. So now people are catching themselves, they're catching each other. They're saying, well, I feel when, and then they look at me like, oh, I'm supposed to come up with something else. So it's just a part of the work that I do all the time. Yeah. So I'm trying to bring it right at the beginning. So it's where we are, you know, through the entire four or five days together. Number one is, is the communication piece. And then I would say the roles going back to like, who's over functioning, who's under functioning, who's feeling like they're always in the blame spot, you know, who's doing the blaming, right? Like, so trying to figure out the roles within the system, you know, and how can we, how can we ship those roles during our time together?'cause I want practice, I want practice. The roles we desire, not continued practice in the roles we und desire, we that are undesirable. Right, right.

Brenda: 39:53

Yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense because you, you do, you do see that. I remember sitting around the, the fire when my son was in wilderness and you know, they're teaching us mm-hmm. Like an I statement, I feel dah, dah, dah. And I was like. I've never heard this before. Right, right. And I'm in my, at that point I was in my forties and I was like, how did I miss this? Right. You know, it's so effective and you see all, you know, my son was. 16. So I was just amazed to see these 16-year-old boys really using this

Jen: 40:32

right

Brenda: 40:33

tool and it worked and they would really like help each other out with it. So I think sometimes as parents, we can also think, well my kid would never do that. Like blah, right? We're gonna talk about this communication style and my kid's never gonna use it. They actually do. I think they really like it because they can finally get across what they're trying to. Say instead of like yelling or screaming or punching a hole in the wall, which doesn't really work so well.

Jen: 41:00

Right, and the reality is, is that when we do identify a feeling, it quiets conflict, right? It's really hard to stay in conflict when someone says, I feel hurt. Or I feel embarrassed. Right. You know, it's, it's hard to be in conflict when those emotions are, are being brought to the surface. And so, so I've, you know, I I, I love the I feel statement and and I've shifted just to the basics of, I think, I believe, I feel, and so if you're gonna start a sentence off with, I think then the, then the next part of the sentence is your thought. If you're gonna start a sentence off with, I believe, then it's a belief that follows. And then if you start a sentence off with, I feel the next word has to be a feeling. Yeah. So I kind of simplify what we know of the I feel statement, especially for families who haven't had treatment experience. Right. And that's just for anyone I think. I believe, I feel.

Brenda: 42:03

Then I imagine you're also having to do some work because when, when somebody says that, for a lot of us over over processors and over doers, we wanna jump in with how to fix that. Right. You know, if my son says, I feel embarrassed. I have to really hold back to just sit and listen with that and hold that and not jump in with, well, you could do this or you could do that, or you should do, because we just wanna fix it for them.

Jen: 42:36

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We definitely wanna fix because it's uncomfortable, right? I mean, when we think about like embarrassment, hurt, shame, like those are just really uncomfortable emotions that we as adults most likely have experienced. So we can really empathize. Like it's a true sense of empathy when our kid's feeling disappointment or embarrassment.'cause we're like, oh, I'd been there. I know what that. You know, that feeling feels like. I think the other piece that when I think about intensives and the kind of the fly on the wall experiences is processing speeds. I. Like that is so evident so quickly for me, within a family system of who has, uh, a higher processing speed and who has a lower processing speed, it's a big piece for me to teach often because there's no right or wrong, like. There. There's no speed that's right or wrong or good or bad. It's just identifying who processes at what speed, who's at the higher end and who's at the lower end, because we have to really work with that, right? Because we know that whoever is the high processor in the system is the one that actually has to slow down the, the slower processor isn't going to speed up. Right, right. So that piece is so important to me to, to really try to identify really quickly within a family, because then that's gonna help us dictate what and how those conversations are gonna be able to be successful. I.

Brenda: 44:10

So can I just ask, what does a slow processor like, what would I see or experience that would tell me, Hmm, this person's a slow processor,

Jen: 44:20

right? They just like, I'm a really quick processor. Like if you ask me what I think or what I feel, I'm gonna give you an answer really quickly. A person who is a slower processor, like they're actually just gonna pause, they're gonna. Take a pause to really think through what you just asked them and then to really think through how are they thinking, what are they feeling? And there might be a lot of other experiences going on in their mind at the same time that they're trying to identify it. So it's really just, or when, when I see it, I see it in couples often where one. Person in the, in the relationship can process really quickly and answer those questions, identify their feelings, really quickly, articulate them. And the other one is needing time, but it's looking as if they're not willing to answer. I. It's looking as if there's more maybe opposition, you know, to what's going on versus the reality. Like they just need more time, like a couple more minutes and some people need, you know, 20 minutes to really think through what's going on. So for me, that's a big piece in the family work is who's processing too quickly within the system and how do we slow that processing down.

Brenda: 45:35

You just described me and my husband. Right. Because it Right. He's a very fast processor. Right. I'm a very slow processor. Yeah. And he thinks that I am either not answering him or, yeah. That I just like, don't wanna engage in the conversation. Right. I'm like, no, but wait, I'm thinking about it. Yeah. He's like, well then say I'm thinking about it. Don't just sit there. I'm like, oh my gosh, it's so hard. Right. And

Jen: 46:00

because, and it's so important to remember like there's no right or wrong. No good or bad. It's, but it is about how does the fast processor impact the relationship and how does the slower processor impact the relationship and impact the ability to communicate or impact the ability to have resolution, you know, in relationship. I

Brenda: 46:22

love that. So just a couple of more practical questions. So is, and in terms of like this, something like who is it good for, or what kind of a family situation is it good for, and then what is it not good for? Because I imagine there's also some where you're like, Hmm, that's not a good

Jen: 46:38

scenario. Right. Well, I think the knot, it's probably a little bit easier to answer because it's a little bit more concrete for me. Like the knot is, is that if a young person needs. You know, needs treatment themselves, right? Like this is bigger than just the family system, right? Like the young person in the family actually needs a treatment experience.

Brenda: 47:00

It's not a replacement for like, my kid really probably needs to go to wilderness, but we're gonna try this first. Correct. Like, that's okay.

Jen: 47:07

Correct. Correct. And then I would also say the young person or the young people in the family, they have to be willing to be parented. Right. So when you think about it, like, when you think about, when I think about all the kids I saw in wilderness I would say probably the number one, you know, factor in, in how did the next, what was the last straw, if you will, which was they, it didn't matter what parents were doing, it didn't matter how great parents were. They had a child who was not letting them parent them. And so that would be something that, that wouldn't be a good candidate, you know? A family wouldn't be a good candidate if they, if their kids are not allowing them to parent them. Right. Very like defiant,

Brenda: 47:49

oppositional. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay.

Jen: 47:51

Yeah. Right. So, so those are really the only two, you know, challenges that, that I would have. I think, you know, the ideal family is the family who, you know, not everyone has to be doing cartwheels right. About coming to do an intensive, but that there's this, there's this, you know, openness of like, even if the openness is like, fine, I'll do it right, like that there's some level I roll. Yeah. Right. That there's some level of openness of, yeah. And that openness also is the acknowledgement like, hey. We're, we're not in the spot that we wanna be. Like we want to be a different type of family, or we want to find, you know, potentially the family we once were and find our way back to that. Or, you know, find the growth that we're all looking for. So there's some level of understanding of why we're doing this. Right? And

Brenda: 48:42

so it doesn't necessarily have to be after. A young person's been to treatment, it could be before. It just means that it's not a replacement for a, a higher level of care. Correct? Correct. Got it. Yeah. Got it. Mm-hmm. And do, does this work with, I'm just,'cause I, in my mind I'm always kind of thinking about teenagers, but what about more of like college age kids? Mm-hmm. Or young adults.

Jen: 49:04

Mm-hmm. Is that also thing my favorite? They're all my favorites really. One of the pieces that's been interesting in doing this is I haven't worked with, young people like 8, 9, 10. And I've had a few family intensives where there's been eight, nine, and 10 year olds on it mixed in with, you know, older adolescents. And it's been amazing. Like, I mean, it's, it's where the, it's where the fun is. It's where the love is, right? Like they have such a skillset that they don't even know on how to bring a system together. You know, especially when there is a, a gap, you know, between a teenager and then a elementary school, you know, kiddo. So that's been really fun. And then young adults, you know, just I'm such a fan of young adults. I'm such a fan of the emerging young adult and them just navigating this really difficult world. And being able to be there as a, as a coach and a mentor for them in general, you know, in my private practice. And so when I do intensives with the emerging young adult or the young adult and their parents, like, it's, it's probably the moments that I'm probably the most vulnerable too. And maybe as I've aged and I've been doing this for over 25 years, like I'm okay with a little tear trickling, right? Like this is big stuff that we're doing, big conversations. Big repair work, you know, the recognition that yes, you know, relationships have, have had rupture, but, but we can repair. That's really the meat of, you know, in of the family work I do with young adults.

Brenda: 50:32

I just keep going back to what you said about sustainability and thinking about this kind of work as like I, when you were talking about like an 8-year-old or a 6-year-old, think about the benefit they get to now take that forward. For so many years. Right, right. It's not like they're not waiting until they're like me when I was right in my forties for the first time hearing about this stuff. So I just think it's so beautiful that the whole family gets the benefit of that to take forward into their family and Right. You know, then to pass down to grandchildren, like it's just. It's really, really beautiful work. Right.

Jen: 51:09

And I think going back to the young adult work like the, the family systems that have, you know, where it's mostly young adults, whether it's, you know, the emerging young adult or the, you know, the actual young adult, is that our. Our, our young people, you know, our young adults are staying with us longer. I think you and I were talking once on the Yes. Phone call where sometimes I think we're just getting a little bit of respite, right? Yeah. Like, they might, they might go to college or they might just, you know, go on a gap year, but they're tending to come back. Right. Because a, a lot of us. You know, we're raising our young adults in communities that they can't afford to live in. Yeah. We're raising them, you know, just in an environment that's financially really difficult for 'em. Mm-hmm. So a lot of our young people are coming home. And so for me, I think that is like, you know, I'm, I. I, I'm so committed to helping the families with young adults in that recognition of like, yeah, if our young adults are gonna be with us longer, then let's have really fun years and experiences and great conversations and relationships and support and all the things that they need. So I think that's where my commitment is with these intensives with our young adults, is because we're having them a lot longer than we ever have seen.

Brenda: 52:21

Yes. I actually read a statistic the other day that 50% of 25 year olds live with a parent in the United States today, which is, yeah. Wild. Right, right. Like, I mean, I have one, he's moving, he's moving in two weeks, right? So I might need to call you Jen and be like, oh my gosh, I'm an empty nester. What do I do? Right? But that it's true. And if you're gonna have, which is beautiful, like I love, I've been just so thankful for every day that he's been with us. But you do have to have, it's an interesting dynamic because now you have an adult living in your home and you're the parent, but. You're not parenting them anymore. Right. And so it's a very funky thing to figure out how do I have this relationship with this young person who is my baby boy? But he's 25 and he, it's confusing,

Jen: 53:14

right? It is confusing and it's. It's so workable. Like you can probably hear my passion. Like it is so workable. Yeah. To, to have those stronger relationships with our young adults and then to have that experience where we get to have them, we change it. Right. Instead of like, oh, they're here until they're 25. It changes to like, we get to have them Yeah. Until they're 25 and it was an amazing few years. Yeah. Instead of a few years of, you know, a ton of discomfort and conflict. Yes. Yes. So,

Brenda: 53:48

oh, well, I love it so much. I'm, I love hearing about innovative, different kinds of, you know, solutions for families, right? That isn't like sitting in an office park therapist chair once a week again. Fabulous. Like, do it. If you can do it, do it. It's hearing, it's great. Yeah. I love hearing about this because it is such a difficult thing. To repair relationships and figure out those parenting strategies that are gonna work. With, you know, potentially a very changed kid who's coming home from treatment or you just wanna have things be better and smoother. So thank you for the work that you are doing. Thank you for, and we'll get your website and all the contact information in the show notes, so that will all be there. You can get a hold of Jen and talk to her about whether this would be potentially a good fit for your family. So thank you for

Jen: 54:46

all you do. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Brenda: 54:51

Okay, my friend. If you want the transcript or show notes and resources from this episode, just go to Hope Stream community.org and click on podcast. That'll take you to all things podcast related, including the full library, a search feature if you're looking for something specific. And also playlist, where we have grouped together episodes on things like craft recovery stories. Solo episodes. Siblings, we even have a start here playlist if you're new. Those are super helpful, so be sure to check them out. I also wanna let you know about a free ebook you can download if you're feeling anxious and confused about how to approach your child's substance misuse. The book is called Worried Sick. A compassionate guide for parents of teens and young adults misusing drugs and alcohol. And it'll introduce you to ways that you can rebuild connection and relationship with your child versus distance. And let them hit rock bottom. It is a game changer. It's totally free. Just go to Hope Dream community.org/worried. To download that. You are amazing. You are such a rockstar, a super elite level parent. It's truly an honor to be here with you. And please know you are not doing this alone. You've got this tribe and you will be okay. You'll make it through this season, and when you do, you are going to be stronger and more resilient than you ever thought possible. I'm sending all my love and light and I'll meet you right back here next week.