Recovery Capital and Community: Two Critical Keys For Turning Abstinence Into Meaningful Recovery, with Stefan Bate

ABOUT THE EPISODE:

When Stefan Bate began his third stay at an inpatient treatment center, he was told that he was a "treatment-resistant alcoholic" prone to chronic relapse. Stefan felt deep shame at this realization, but as he would later learn, this is not as uncommon as you might think: Research by Dr. John Kelly at Harvard Medical School finds that, on average, it takes eight years and eight treatment episodes for someone to find sustained remission. But why?

Stefan Bate, the Chief Clinical Officer at Jaywalker Lodge, has a few ideas about that. He graduated from Jaywalker’s inpatient program himself in 2007 and saw the incredible difference it made not only to his own life but to the lives of countless other men who had previously been resistant to treatment. 

After the financial crisis of 2008 made his banking career less attractive, Stefan went back to graduate school, earning a Master's in Applied Psychology and his license as an addiction counselor, eventually returning to Jaywalker in a leadership role.

In this episode, Stefan and I discuss the concept of "recovery capital," why some individuals do so well in 28-day containment-style treatment but fail in the real world, and how community-based recovery is shifting the landscape of treatment for the better.

EPISODE RESOURCES:

• Hopestream’s Recovery Captial downloadable PDF
• Jaywalker Lodge website
• Jaywalker Admissions: 1 (866) 445-1269
• John F. Kelly, PhD - Harvard

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Transcript

Stefan: 0:01

You know, our, our goal with everybody who comes into jaywalker is this will be the last treatment episode you ever need. How do we do that? What do we you know, you know, your story will tell you everything that you need to know Especially for guys that have been in treatment lots of times and it typically isn't about necessarily learning something new intellectually It's about doing it and experiencing it and and building independent recovery capital That's theirs that they own and they have walking out of the door Not this thought that you're going to need to go build that after.

Brenda: 0:42

Welcome to Hope Stream, a podcast where you'll hear interviews, conversations, and encouraging words for parents of teens and young adults who struggle with substance misuse and mental health. I'm Brenda Zane, your host and a fellow parent whose child struggled. I'm so glad you're here. Take a deep breath and know you're not doing this alone anymore. Hey friend, thanks for hanging out with me today. I hope you are taking a few deep breaths, having some water, having some real food, you know, taking care of you. And I also hope that you will give yourself a huge pat on the back for the effort you are putting in to all that is going on with your family. I know you may be exhausted and feeling like despite everything you're doing, you're still not where you want to be. And I would encourage you to think about where you are today versus where you were two or three or six months ago. Often, if we take a minute and glance in the rear view mirror, we notice things that have improved. Even if the young person who brought you here isn't necessarily better, I bet you're better. And that, my friend, is progress. I was so thrilled to sit down with my guest for today's show for a few reasons. One is the more time I spend in this field, the more I recognize the signs of people who truly are invested in helping others get better. They are humble. They're often not the noisiest people. They fly a little below the radar, and they just keep their heads down and keep on doing great work. And importantly, they are usually in recovery themselves because they've experienced firsthand the freedom from their addictive cycles and tendencies, and they desperately want to, in whatever way they can, facilitate that experience for people who are still in the Stefan Bate is one of those people. What I've noticed about Stephan and the team he leads at Jay Walker Lodge in Carbondale, Colorado is that they quietly but emphatically go about the business of transforming the lives of men who are prone to chronic relapse. Stephan is the chief clinical officer at Jay Walker and is also a graduate of the program that he now heads up. Love that. After struggling with a debilitating relationship with alcohol, Stephan left the banking industry in 2007 to pursue psychology studies at the University of Denver. He holds a master's in applied psychology and is a licensed addiction counselor in the state of Colorado. Stephan is recognized in the field as a public speaker and is well versed in the community model of care and integrated care approaches. When we sat down for this conversation, I was curious to know more about the reasons why some young people do so well in treatment. And then when they leave the four walls of their program, the wheels fall off pretty quickly. And we also went deep into recovery capital, what that means and why it is the most critical piece of the recovery process to make sure someone is living a new healthy lifestyle. Versus just existing between the last and the next drink or drug. I am so grateful to have had this time with Stephan who brings such a warm and personal touch and who Clearly without a doubt cares deeply about the men who are rebuilding their lives One step at a time at Jay Walker Lodge And of course you can find links to Stephan and Jay Walker and any resources we mentioned in the show notes For this episode at hopestreamcommunity. org. Okay. Here is my chat with Stefan Bates. Enjoy. Hey, Stephan. So good to have you here today to spend a little bit of time. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.

Stefan: 5:10

Yeah. Thanks Brenda. Thanks for having me. Happy to be here.

Brenda: 5:13

I'm excited to talk about a couple of the things that we're going to touch on specifically because you know, as I work with parents in our community and just in talking with people about the podcast and everywhere, and I'm sure you see this too, the same thing kind of comes up over and over. And over. Yes. You're like, this is a trend. I'm seeing the trend here. So there's a couple of those things that we want to touch on, but I would love to get a little bit of your background because I know you are a product of Jay Walker Lodge. I am. Right? Yeah. So that's, tell us a little bit about that. I'd love to get. Get a little bit of that story, however much you want to share or not.

Stefan: 5:51

Yeah, no, no, that's great and happy to share. And when I give sort of the welcome speech at family programs, you know, I start with, I'm Stephan Bate. I'm the Chief Political Officer at J. Walker Lodge, but maybe my more important title is alumnus. Because I also, I went through the program, so I have sat where all of the guys are currently sitting, and I went through a family, an in person family experience like these families are getting ready to do. So, I am what they called a chronic relapser, treatment resistant alcoholic. So I went through three previous inpatient treatment attempts before coming to Jay Walker Lodge. So Jay Walker was my fourth treatment attempt. And so what that looked like for me is my my first life was in banking. I limped through college. I barely got through my senior year because at that point I'd really tipped across that line of everyday drinking, full blown alcoholism. So I, I found myself heavily addicted to alcohol, out of college, without a job, and I somehow managed to talk somebody into hiring me at a bank. That's pretty

Brenda: 6:56

impressive, actually.

Stefan: 6:57

Well, you know, I think a lot of us in recovery, it's sort of like, we can be, we can be really good starters. Uh, not so good, you know, with the follow through and finishing, and that was certainly my story. So I went through these cycles of, You know, working at the bank, trying to desperately control my drinking, getting to a point where I just really couldn't, headed off to treatment, would go through that 28 day spin dry of treatment, get out of treatment, uh, get a, get a job at the, at a, at a, either the same or a different bank, and repeat the cycle all over again. So I was on this kind of every nine months. Uh, cycle of needing to go to treatment, you know, getting to the place where I was very, very dependent upon alcohol. So I did that three times, and then, you know, when I tried to get sober, you know, for this last time, I was really pointed out, you know, you're this chronic relapser, you are treatment resistant. Which was very hard for my ego to hear, but they wrecked it. Cause I, I, at that point, Brenda, I thought that I was very smart when I thought that it was pretty bright. And I had a lot of intellectual pride. Uh, I had a lot of opinions. The good news is, is I was, I was at such a place of brokenness that. I was able to really get out of my own way, and I had no idea what that had meant before. People have been telling me that for a long time, get out of your own way. Like, I don't even know what that means, but that's fine. But for me, it allowed me to kind of get disinterested with, you know, become almost completely disinterested with my own opinions. Oh, interesting. So it isn't even like I, I necessarily changed my beliefs, it was that, you know, I was at this place where my beliefs were not that really important to me or seemed to be all that relevant. And so I took the suggestion of coming up to Carbondale, I've been living in Denver before that, Denver, Colorado. So I came up to Carbondale and went into the Jay Walker program and at that time. This is about 18 years ago. Jay Walker was really somewhat of a, of a, a paradigm shift in the, in the recovery world. At that point, most treatment was still that 28 day, thin dry, you know, done in containment inside of four walls, safe, secure time out from your life for 28 days. And then you should be able to then go be sober for the rest of your life in recovery on the street.

Brenda: 9:16

Cause that makes so much sense.

Stefan: 9:17

Right. Cause that works, right? Um, you know, I mean, uh, it's like, you know, diabetes and heart disease don't work that way, but I'm sure it's easy for addiction. So I, I took the suggestion and went into Jay Walker, which I said, it's a paradigm shift because at the time, two things were sort of radical about Jay Walker. One, it was a minimum of four months stay. So you had to sign up and commit to four months of treatment. So, you know, uh, your, your standard month plus three more. The other thing that was radical about J Walker is it was done, uh, in a community setting. And so what I mean by that is most addiction treatment then and still today is done in what we call a containment setting. I mean, it's, uh, highly structured, inside of four walls. Clients don't really interact with the local communities, even if they're in a local community. And kind of everything that happens is in this simulated environment of treatment,

Brenda: 10:11

right?

Stefan: 10:12

Well, Jaywalker was very different. At Jaywalker, uh, I was outside of the building more than I was inside the building. I was, uh, you know, all of the meetings and support groups and people that I was meeting, they weren't just people that were in treatment. It wasn't just the staff and the other clients, uh, and peers that I was with in treatment. It was actually making connections with the greater recovery community that existed here in the Valley. So the meetings that I would go to, the people that I was meeting, what that did for me and, and why I think this, uh, was a big part of my story is I learned that the skill sets needed to live in recovery. are very different than the skill sets needed to just navigate a 28 day inpatient containment style treatment. And that had been so confusing. I mean, nobody was more ashamed of being a chronic relapser and treatment resistant than me. I just didn't have the skill sets and I didn't know how to do it. So, fast forward, I, I, I went through Jaywalker. I, I, you know, I stayed for four months. I stayed in the community here, I went back to, uh, the world of banking while at the same time staying very close to Jay Walker, being very active as an alumnus of Jay Walker. I got to volunteer at Jay Walker, I ended up getting to sponsor many newcomers that came into Jay Walker. Uh, things are going well. I'm doing commercial banking up in the Snowmass Village, Aspen area, which is about 30 miles from Carbondale. And then the recession hit. And, uh, for me, it was, it was actually the best thing that ever happened in my life. You know, the, the joke I was making at the time was, you know, we don't make, you know, they don't make tires in snow mass village. Right. So it was all tourism, real estate, uh, speculative real estate investment, things like that. So everything dried up overnight and the other commercial banker in my office just kind of spent about. Nine months looking, looking at each other and not doing anything. And, and I took the opportunity to then go back to school. I got to sit down with my wife and have a conversation about, you know, sort of reinventing my life. And it was really incredible, Brenda. I was like a banker on a Friday. And then that next week, I was a full time grad student and at the same time, there was a little sober living company here that was looking for a sober living manager. So it was, it just worked out incredibly that, um, I could go back to grad school, you know, getting that job as a, as a sober living manager. I also worked as a barista while I was doing that. So, took a step and, and, and then it just sort of went from there. And that was a, gosh, that was a, uh, Over 15 years ago, almost 16 years ago, and, and, you know, went through grad school, became, uh, became a therapist, and then that moved into becoming a supervisor, which then moved into this role that I'm in now, which is overseeing all of our, our clinical operations here at GWO.

Brenda: 13:05

Incredible. Yeah, I love that. Banker to barista. Well, that, that tells you though, that it was something that was really meant to be, right, that you were willing to. To make those steps because that's, that's not a small feat to go back to school and be working and have a family and like do all of that. So I think that's really cool. I would also love, I did not know this until recently, the meaning behind the name Jay Walker. Oh

Stefan: 13:35

yeah.

Brenda: 13:36

Would you give us a just quick little, uh, like peek into that? Sure.

Stefan: 13:41

Sure. So there is a, a parable in the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Which people call the big book, it's somewhat of the 12 step Bible. And at that time we're talking about the 1930s. So, you know, 1930s, we didn't have brain scans, fMRIs, you know, all of these things. So they were starting to feel like, well, addiction has to be a disease, but you know, we don't have any way of proving that, but it's got to be because it just doesn't make sense. And it isn't that we're dealing with people that are clinically insane. These are people that have, uh, rationality, intelligence, willpower, and other areas of their life. But for some reason, when it comes to alcohol, they seem to have no ability to choose not to drink. Despite whatever consequences are coming their way, despite themselves not wanting to drink, they still can't choose not to do it. So they were trying to explain this in this book. And they said, it's really like somebody who has an affinity for jaywalking. Where they just are running out in front of traffic, and it's a little fun, and they get away with it. You know, the adrenaline gets pumping, and then one day they get hit by a car, and they're like, Oh, okay. That was a close one. I'm not gonna do that again. And the next day, they're out in front of traffic, and they get hit again, but this time it's more serious. So now they go to the hospital. They've got a broken leg, and man, I will, you know, I've learned my lesson. You know, I've gotten some bad consequences here and then, you know, two days out of the hospital They're back in front of front of traffic and they even say in the book It's like you might think this is an absurd example, but for those of us that have had addictions and are now in recovery Uh, it actually is kind of right on this this sort of and when we talk about alcoholic insanity. That's what we're talking about there. This idea that despite having all of the great good reasons on the planet, despite having values and character, despite not even wanting to use again, we're going to use again. And that's really what that sort of insanity is about. And really when we say powerless. That's what we're talking about.

Brenda: 15:45

Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was so fascinating the jaywalker So you got a lot of jaywalkers hanging out and around in Carbondale. We do But I bet it's a very safe place to drive because there aren't people

Stefan: 15:59

So that's pretty funny is we're right on Main Street in Carbondale We have five buildings right here just right smack dab downtown Carbondale and my window So I'm looking at it right now actually looks out to Main Street And our solution solutions building is across from my office So daily I get to watch jaywalkers actually jaywalking Across that main street.

Brenda: 16:20

That's hilarious You should just paint the whole street like a side like a crosswalk. Yeah, they're not actually That's so funny well when we were talking I don't know a while ago I had mentioned that so many Kids or young people or however old they are do really great when they're in treatment They, you know, not just follow the rules, but they want to, yes, do all the things and go to the groups and learn. And they come out and, and I saw this with my son, like I am doing a 180 on my life and I'm, you know, I have a clear head and all these things, and we're like, yay, it's so great. We see our kids again, right? It's like, oh my gosh, there's my kid. And then. Like within a few short weeks or months or like you said you were on sort of a nine month cycle there they go and they just can't seem to catch on and and pull through everything that they learned when they were in treatment in the real world and It's like you said that chronic relapser. And so I thought maybe you could give us some insight to that because it is so infuriating to see as a parent you're like wait you You've been, however long, with no alcohol, no substances, not even a cigarette, and then the minute you get out, help us.

Stefan: 17:47

Right. Why are we going back to it? Help us. Yeah, you bet. And, and it is, it's infuriating for the parents, and it, it creates deep shame, uh, for the clients. Mm hmm. Yeah, so it's, so it's really interesting, and, and, There's a researcher that I really like. His name is Dr. Kelly. He's out of Harvard. John Kelly. He does prolific research on addiction treatment and his, his data right now shows that on average it takes about eight years And about eight treatment episodes for someone to find sustained remission.

Brenda: 18:24

Wow.

Stefan: 18:24

So we're talking about eight years from the time that someone is diagnosed, uh, you know, meets criteria for substance use disorder and finds sustained remission in eight treatment episodes. Oh my goodness. That's an incredible amount of time. So, so then it begs the question, well, why aren't treatment episodes yielding recovery experiences? And what is happening there? And how do we get better? Right at making sure that treatment episodes are translating to recovery experiences So I look at that a lot and in jaywalker Our model is basically built to take a look at that problem And and what we've learned is that in in in a way sort of our our demographic, you know, who is a jaywalker? Well, well one of the characteristics of a jaywalker is it's somebody who's really great in treatment and really struggles in recovery and I I talked about it a little bit based on my own story, but If you look at what happens in treatment, especially if you look at what happens in a, uh, a structured containment style treatment, you can really only hope to get a couple of things accomplished. You can expect that we're gonna have a, uh, decrease of physical symptoms related to withdrawal, right? Somebody's gonna physically start feeling better, they're gonna be less sick. You can, uh, expect that you're going to have a decrease in some symptoms of distress. So we're looking at things like my symptoms of depression, anxiety, things like that. You can expect that you're going to have a temporary decrease of triggers. And part of that makes sense because they're in a contained secure environment, right? They're not in an environment that is causing a lot of treatment. That's really the job of treatment and you can expect that They're going to get some education and some psychoeducation, right? That's what happens in treatment Well, if you look at people that are successful in recovery They maybe got those things in treatment, but what they got outside of treatment and community was an increase. So treatment was all about a sort of a, a decreasing of things. Recovery is actually all about a building and an increase in things. And so we call that recovery capital. So the role of, uh, recovery support communities and recovery communities, recovery support services outside treatment, is to help someone establish and build all of the recovery capital that they're going to need in order to maintain their recovery but propel it forward. So abstinence happens in treatment, recovery only happens in community. And part of that just makes sense. I mean, treatment's a transactional experience, right? All of the things that are going on in treatment are going to soon be gone from someone's life, right? The therapist that they're, you know, the people that they're with. And part of what I think happens is if the only thing that's in between someone and using this treatment, what's, what's in between when treatment goes away, when they graduate, you know, and that's why I talk to my parents, you know, it's like, what's a parent's worst day? It's the day before their, before their child goes into treatment. What's a parent's second worst day? The day that they graduate from treatment.

Brenda: 21:23

A hundred percent.

Stefan: 21:25

So what we do at Jaywalker and our model is a little different is we said, okay, well, if the problem is that treatment episodes aren't, aren't yielding recovery experiences, the solution is really good treatment combined. with recovery communities so that you're both getting the benefits of contemporary treatment and the benefits of, of an increase in the building of recovery capital. Is there a model that allows you to have your cake and eat it too? Is there a model that gives us a simultaneous benefit of both of these? And that is, that is the open community model of care. And that's what we have at Jay Walker Lodge. And so our treatment, you know, we're not leveraging containment as an agent of change, we're ledger leveraging community. And, you know, that sounds confusing and there's a lot of good, you know, cycle babble in there, but, but ultimately what, what that means is our men are outside of our buildings more than they're inside of our buildings, rather than, I'll give you a very easy example, rather than having a kind of artificial or simulated. 12 step meeting experience or support group experience that's done within the confines of a treatment. So it's basically like a, a simulation of, it's not the real thing, right? All of our men are actually, all of the meetings that they're going to are real meetings that are held in the Carbondale community. We don't have treatment meetings. All of our men are getting sponsors that are, Outside in the community. These are just other men that are actually living their recovery life here in the community. We are Connected with all of the activities we're doing we do activities seven days a week. They're all done out in the community So, you know the hiking the mountain biking the rock climbing the skiing all of the things that we're doing Just as if they lived here and we're doing those things in the community. The other thing that's happening is because they're Out on the streets of Carbondale, you know, they're going, you know, throughout the community, they're exposed to in vivo triggers. So rather than just learning some things, practicing some things, hoping that it's actually going to translate to an experience once they get out of treatment, they're getting very small measured structured doses of those triggers all of the time. So they're getting the real world experience of practicing all the tools and skills that we're teaching them in treatment. But they're doing it now. What we're doing is we're, we're, we're looking through a lens of clinical treatment out at recovery. Right. Right? So what we actually need to do is we need to flip that around. We need to look through the lens of recovery. Out at treatment because again, our goal should not be to graduate someone from treatment that to me isn't a very good goal The goal should be you know, how are we going to make sure that someone has sustained thriving fulfilling independent recovery? In nine months in 12 months in 18 months two years from now three years from now, right? So if you're Uh, the measure of success is that I graduated someone from treatment. Well, it turns out that people graduate from treatment all the time And one of our sayings at Jaywalker, we have, uh, a lot of, uh, one liners and sayings, but we have twelve principles that we really believe in. And one of them is it's daily choice to stay in treatment, right? So no one is forced to be at Jaywalker, so it's a daily choice to be here. You have autonomy and choice. You can be here or not. But it's also a daily choice to stay in recovery while in treatment. And we're not talking about not using drugs and alcohol, right? We're talking about, um, you know, how do I know if I'm in recovery or if I'm just in between a drink? Right, I had some periods of abstinence in my life that I wasn't really in recovery. I wasn't working a diligent program Practicing the habits rituals and routines that someone in recovery needs to practice. I was just in between a drink

Brenda: 25:25

Hey there, are you feeling stuck in a cycle of drama and arguments with your child worried sick about their substance use? I have been there and I want you to know there's hope. This podcast is just one piece of the curated and trustworthy resources and solutions we offer for parents. We recognize you need emotional support and a solid plan for moving forward, making positive change in your family. So in addition to connecting with other parents and feeling like you're part of something bigger, we also teach you practical skills and strategies to dial down the drama and diffuse those heated moments. We step you through the evidence based craft approach, a game changer that can help you invite your child to accept help without resorting to tough love or waiting for rock bottom. We have so much more than the podcast waiting for you. Head over to hopestreamcommunity. org. To tap into all our resources and become part of the HopeStream family in our private online community. Remember, you are not alone in this. We're doing it together. Now let's get back to the conversation. For a parent listening, they might be like, wait, wait, wait. You're, you're in recovery, not in between a drink. What is the difference? Like what are the actual things that you're doing that tell you as a human, I am in recovery? Yeah. I am not in between two drinks. Yeah. Like what are some of the things that you do? I'm sure you still today do some of those things.

Stefan: 27:09

You bet. I do. I, I like to use, you know, I think this analogy gets way overplayed, uh, but I'll do it anyway. So it's the idea, it's like. How does someone know that they have diabetes? Because they take their insulin. You know, so it's this difference between an intellectual knowing And a, and a knowing. And it's based in action. So one of the things that we'll often say is, you know, I don't necessarily always listen to what someone's mouth is saying, but I listen to what their feet are doing. So let's say, you know, Stefan, I'm, I'm someone, I'm saying that I'm in long term recovery, and I'm in recovery, and so I believe certain principles, right? Like I might believe this idea of my own will. My own power, my own, just Stefan's resources. I'm powerless over drugs and alcohol. So I could sit here and give you a 30 minute lecture on what that means, but am I doing all of the things that someone who believes they're powerless is doing right? Am I still connecting and networking with other people in recovery? Am I doing fellowship? Am I doing service? Am I going to meetings? Am I continuing to work on my self care? Do I have a self care plan? Uh, do I continue to work on my mental health? Am I complying on medications? If that's something that I'm meeting is important, important to me, do I continue to have a process of values, clarification, and understanding how I'm manifesting my values in my daily life? Right. Do I take time to have some sort of a spiritual practice, whether that's religious or not, you know, am I praying? Am I meditating? Am I journaling, you know, all of these things that people that are really successful in recovery, happy and recovered do, am I doing those things? And I often call that your, your first step action list. Because again, our guys, they are smart, they are educated, they know what it means to be powerless intellectually, but are they doing those things? And so that's something that I always tell parents too, it's, you know, parents, you, you have a, you have a right to be hopeful, you have permission to be hopeful. You also have permission to be skeptical. And to be realistic, and often our parents have gotten into these cycles of, of sort of the debate and the argument and the, and the, and the feeling, uh, you know, taken advantage of, and our parents sometimes feel like I'm such a fool, it's like, well, you know, our guys have gotten really good at saying things that they feel like they need to say, and, and part of that is about how they maintain their addiction when they're fully in it. Part of it is, is really related to their own shame. And, and, and really firmly believing that they want to be these things, you know, part of it is not wanting to worry you,

Brenda: 29:54

right?

Stefan: 29:55

And all of that aside, it's like, what are their feet doing? You know, let's listen to what their feet are doing.

Brenda: 30:02

I like that idea of listening to someone's feet. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I can like visually connect with that. Permission to be hopeful is so great and also skeptical. And I think that's another struggle that parents have, especially with the chronic relapser is. How do I start to trust again? Yeah. And I think it goes back to what you just said. Watch their feet, listen to their feet. Yeah. Do, do the guys, when you start to talk about that difference in recovery versus being between. Two drinks or two pills or whatever it happens to be. Is that news to them? Like, or do they get it? Do they, are they like, Oh, you mean, okay, so I got to do all this other stuff. Like what's the tolerance for that newsflash?

Stefan: 30:51

It, it depends on the guy, right? Uh, obviously. And one of the beauties of Jay Walker is, you know, in a lot of treatments, it's like, okay, well, you're going to do this, this treatment thing, and then you're going to get out and you have to go do all these things. And if you go do all of these things. Then your chance of being successful in staying in recovery when you're out of here is great, right? But there's sort of isn't a lot of support and going and doing all these things. It's so much just like a prescription Well at jaywalker, our model is really built on doing the things So we're facilitated. It's almost, I, I get this analogy too. Um, hopefully my, uh, my, my, my Gen Xer friends will, we'll get the reference, but I think about the Karate Kid, you know, the old with Mr. Miyagi and Karate Kid and Daniel Sun and, you know. Daniel gets his behind whipped by the local bullies and goes to, you know, find Mr. Miyagi and says, Hey, I need some karate. And the next, you know, 10 minutes of the movie, we're watching Daniel wax and wash his car and paint the fence and sand the deck and do all these movements and all these things. And then the next thing we know is Daniel knows karate, right? Daniel, he didn't get taught. Karate, he didn't read a book on karate. He had an experiential experience, right? He had an experience That then wired his nervous system in his body and basically when he was done with that new karate That's what we get to do here So instead of just hey learn these things get this education and then go do all these things later We're actually doing them now. So a lot of it is just baked into the system, right the habits I talk a lot about habits rituals and routines of effective recovery Right? If, if I have habits and routines that are, that are now hardwired in. It's going to be easier for me to stay in recovery than to not stay in recovery

Brenda: 32:42

Right

Stefan: 32:43

if I go through And I don't develop any of these habits routines Then we're just hoping that somebody really has the ability the motivation the capacity to go do that on their own afterwards That's the first way to answer that is we're doing those things with them, but they're done as it As they will then, the same way they'll do them when they're out of jaywalk. The other piece there is, you know, we're having those conversations with the guys all the time. So we're talking about, well, what does it mean to be in treatment? And a lot of our guys have done that before, right? They've been in treatment before. They've, they've, for, you know, 30, 60, 90 days before. They know what it's like to just sit in due time. and not participate in groups, not be an advocate for their own recovery, not, not do any of the extra stuff. And then we, we also have, you know, an understanding of, well, how did that work for you and what did that get you? You know, our, our goal with everybody who comes into Jaywalker is this'll be the last treatment episode you ever need. How do we do that? What do we, you know, you know. Your story will tell you everything that you need to know, especially for guys that have been in treatment lots of times. And it typically isn't about necessarily learning something new intellectually. It's about doing it and experiencing it and, and building independent recovery capital that's theirs, that they own, and they have walking out of the door, not this thought that you're going to need to go build that after.

Brenda: 34:07

Could you talk a little bit more about recovery capital because I think that's a term that might be new to a lot of folks and what that actually is and why it's so important.

Stefan: 34:18

You bet. So recovery capital is a term that I believe was first coined by William White. He's another prolific. researcher, Bill White, and I guess simply recovery capital is all of the internal and external resources that someone can bring to bear to both maintain their recovery, but also propel it forward. And it's not just about staying sober. So this looks at things like relationships. One of the things that we know is one of the, the greatest predictors of a, of a successful outcome are the number of people someone has in their life that are supportive of their recovery. And the, the, the least amount of people they have or, or an increase in supportive recovery relationships, a decrease in relationships that are supportive or co signing using, right? So we've got a flipping network. So it looks at relationships, both breadth and depth. Um, It looks at things like emotional well being, spiritual well being, but it's very practical things like, do you have transportation? Do you have income? Do you have an ability to get a job and have a job? It looks at healthcare, you know, it's just a giant list of things that someone needs. In order to move forward in your recovery and it's not just to me what I love about recovery and recovery capital is it's not Just about staying sober. It's not just about being abstinent It's actually about having a better and better more fulfilling stronger more meaningful life And and that's one of the beauties about recovery is it's sort of if it was any other disease, you know If it was cancer not having cancer is awesome, right? recovery is a disease where you know Just not using is really just a beginning and we get to go from, you know, negative 10, you know, could not be more distressed, more unhappy, have the lowest quality of life, self image, all of those things, you know, well, you know, negative 10 distressed. Well, not only do we need to take that to then zero or baseline, but as I continue to work recovery, as I continue to develop recovery capital, I actually continue to go from baseline to plus one to plus two to plus five to plus 10 till we get to this place where you're, you know, you're sitting around talking to somebody and they say, I'm, I'm. I'm someone who's grateful. I'm a grateful alcoholic. I'm great that the phenomenon of the grateful alcoholic and what they're talking about there is that My life is better today than had I not had this disease to begin with because the recovery from it has given me a set of tools it has Deepened my relationships. It's allowed me to show up as the person I want to be You know, had I written my own story for myself, I'd have written myself short. That's the beauty of recovery and recovery capital. It's not just about not using it.

Brenda: 37:12

Right. And the great thing that I heard too, when you were talking about recovery capital is that it's not things that you're having to go out and necessarily pay for. It is just, it's, I kind of think of it as like the padding around you is, you know, all the stuff that's surrounding you, that's holding up what you need to be successful.

Stefan: 37:34

You got it. I think about recovery often. We have to, you're going to have to excuse me, but my love language is kind of metaphor. So I talk in a lot of metaphor analogy. I often think about like, so if recovery is just this like beautiful. Glass, you know sculpture this just beautiful crystal vase, right and I'm going to set it on a table I want as many legs under that table as possible

Brenda: 38:00

because I

Stefan: 38:00

you know I don't know exactly which time you know, which leg has the most weight bearing, you know Or if one leg goes away, I have enough legs, you know if I have that that beautiful Crystal vase on two legs and one of them goes away. It's it's crashing down. But if I have You know, all of this different, uh, these, these different supports and structures and recovery capital around me and one leg goes away, I still have seven others.

Brenda: 38:27

As parents, we need to do the same thing with our own recovery because we are one hair away from snapping and shaming and blaming and screaming and distrusting and all the things that come when we're that close to our kids and their struggle that we also need to build our own recovery capital to say, I'm going to go to my own support group. I'm going to, you know, like do all those things. But I hear so many parents that say when I don't get a phone call or when I do get a phone call or when, you know, like all these little things start to happen and then they just inch closer and closer to their old habits. And so as you were saying that, I was just like, wait a minute, I know he's talking about the person. Who's, you know, coming out of treatment or in recovery, but it's also so true for us as parents. You bet.

Stefan: 39:21

You bet. So we use something called the Recovery Capital Index, the RCI, and we use it with clients, uh, and then alumni. And so what we're doing is we're tracking somebody's recovery capital. Well, we've also used it with parents. I'll let you in on a little secret, don't tell anyone, it's the exact same measure. They've just changed the name of it from the Recovery Capital Index to the Resiliency Capital Index.

Brenda: 39:45

Got it.

Stefan: 39:46

Yeah, so it is really true and the studies on this are fascinating to me, so, you know, why is this so important? Well, obviously it's important because we want people to maintain their recovery and to have a really fulfilling life, but it's also really important. When it comes to relapse, because if somebody has a high level of recovery capital and they have a relapse, the intensity and duration of the relapse is much less. The dose, so the amount of substances that someone uses, and the amount of days in which they're using them for are much less. So if you have a high level of recovery capital and there's a relapse, you're going to get into recovery again much faster versus if there isn't. So when I look at our model and what we're doing, it really is a recovery capital model, not a sort of recovery talking about model. And that to me is this big difference. You know, why don't treatment episodes yield recovery experiences? Or why can someone be very, very good in treatment, but struggle in recovery? Well, to be good in treatment, I need to follow the rules. I need to, uh, try and be vulnerable and participatory and group, you know, all of those things and, you know, do my assignments on time, you know, wake up when they're asking me to wake up. That's how you become, you know, someone's favorite client in treatment, right? The staff loves you, you know, you're, you're no problem. You get up, we don't have to harass you. You, you know, are in group doing what you're supposed to be doing. Well, in recovery, I've got to build authentic, empowering relationships with other people. I've got to put myself out there. I have to get myself places. I have to pay for things. I have to know how to, uh, navigate the challenges of everyday living. I have to, I remember when I got in recovery, one of the things that I've never done in my life, despite the fact that I was 26, is I had never had a primary care physician, or gotten a physical or a checkup. You know, since I was a kid. Yeah, I mean, I literally remember thinking like how do you do that? Did you just call? Did you just walk in somewhere? Like how do you, how do you get a doctor's appointment? I have no idea, right? So that's another big piece of recovery capital and a big part of what we're doing in Jay Walker is it isn't just about, I love it because you said it Brenda, you're like, well, they went, they even tried hard to treat me. And wanted to be sober, right? This, this always gets regulated to, we, we look at clients that struggle outside of treatment, and we say, well, they must not have wanted it, they must not have tried hard, they must not have tried hard, they were lying to us, everything they said in treatment was a lie. I would actually say that I think it probably most, more often than not, wasn't a lie. They wanted that, and they believed it. They didn't know what they didn't know. So this idea that a lot of our clients, not only do we have to really be focusing on mental health and addiction, we have to be focusing on life skills and executive functioning. Because in the real world, most of our men, and this has nothing to do with how old they are, this is as true as my, for my 18 year olds, as it is for my 40 year olds. Outside of active addiction, they do not have the skills necessary to navigate the challenges of everyday life. And that is incredibly hard and shameful and another big thing that men don't want to admit or ask help for.

Brenda: 42:53

What people kept telling me when my son was struggling and, and then in early recovery is his body is 20. His ability to function and his emotional maturity and all of that is still 13 when he started using. Yeah. And I really saw that and it's so frustrating because you see. A 20 year old or 26 year old and you're like, what do you mean? You don't know where to put a stamp on an envelope.

Stefan: 43:20

What do you mean? You don't know how to do it right.

Brenda: 43:23

But I love that you don't leave it up to chance that you're, that you're using this capital index, recovery, capital index to make it very. intentional. And I also love that there's one for parents. So I'm going to make sure and see if we can get a link in the, in the show notes to those. Cause I think that would be a great workshop actually that we could do in our community, but you're not leaving it up to chance. And it also doesn't sound pejorative. So it's not like, don't do this. Don't do that. Don't do this. Make sure you don't do that. Like, it sounds like it's very additive and it's, and it's supportive. And it's like, again, I just kind of go back to this padding. Like it's the bubble wrap all around you. That's going to allow you to really move forward versus I just, I hear a lot of like, well, you know, we were writing a contract or kids coming home and we're writing this contract. And they can't do this and they can't do that and they can't see these people and they can't be out after this time and I'm like, Oh my gosh, that sounds terrible. I wouldn't want to come home. Yeah, you know, so this sounds a little bit more positive and like supportive.

Stefan: 44:31

Yeah, you've got it and you hit on another big principle there. It's another one of our we believes, so that so the we believe statement is that treatment should not be a consequence of your addiction, it should be a hopeful forward looking promise of your future recovery. And so addiction treatment is so much about what we are trying to stay away from and not do. And when I just hear you, you know, with the parent, and of course the parents are doing it, they're terrified. They're terrified that my, you know, my, my child is going to use again, and then there's going to be horrible consequences, or ultimately they'll die. Right? So, so we get, I think, a way hooked to this idea that it should I'll be about what we're trying not to do should be all about not using well Unfortunately not using isn't great motivation for long term recovery It's great motivation to go to treatment or to start or you know, it's usually the focus of an intervention But that motivation fades so quickly and in any of your parents that have been through multiple treatment attempts They probably have seen that happen right where somebody's yes, please help me. These consequences are horrible and two weeks one month later It's I don't know. It wasn't that really bad. You know, my sense of urgency is kind of gone, right? It's I call it junk food motivation, you know, it's sort of immediate gives you pretty big calorie bump right away But it's not going to sustain someone. So we have to turn our motivation from not just what we're trying to stay away from, but what we're going towards. I still do all the things that I'm doing today because I absolutely love what I'm getting to my, my relationships, my marriage. I get to be the father that I want to be. I have a career that I absolutely love that I get to show up and have. Significant meaning and purpose. I, my biggest bottom in my addiction was not the material, you know, the money, the legal issues, the, the biggest bottom in my recovery was that I had no ability to show up as the man that I wanted to be. So we have to do that for our men in treatment and we have to do it while they're in treatment. This is part of the recovery experience. We can't just hold this out as some carrot that you're going to get someday if you're a really good boy and you do all of these things. Just, just trust us. You'll get it. We have to have some of the lived experience of recovery that has to happen while people are in treatment. And it has to include a ton of fun, and passion, and friendship.

Brenda: 47:09

Hmm, yeah. And I know that, and I don't know what the number is, you do, I'm sure, that some insane number of Jaywalker graduates still live. Within like a certain number of miles of within Carbondale like they they don't leave they they stay because I'm sure that it's all their friendships

Stefan: 47:29

That's right one and it's their community and they've been living in the community since they since they arrived But yeah last count we had over 400 active alumni in the Roaring Fork Valley Which they define as Glenwood Springs to ask but with Carbondale kind of right in the middle of that

Brenda: 47:45

Yeah. That is incredible. I love it. Like, if you're looking for a great place to go live with really cool people, you know, all the single girls are going to go move to your area because there's going to be so many awesome guys living there. That's right. That's so cool. Well, I know I need to let you go just some really quick basics. You guys are men only, very specialized in and really able to help that treatment resistant guy who's been to multiple programs, but you also do like somatic stuff and you know, holistic. So it's not just like, like you said, it's very well rounded, which I think is so, so important. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for the time. So much clarity and really good things to think about. Is the recovery capital index, is that something that you guys created or is there a version that I could link to just for people that want it?

Stefan: 48:40

Yeah, there is a version that you can link through. It's a, it's a validated measure that we use. So we didn't create the measure. It's, it's a measure that's available for anyone to use. Okay. And it's, uh, I think typically used with, uh, outpatient and alumni populations. And so I'll get you the link so that people can, can take a look at that.

Brenda: 49:02

Yeah. I think that'd be interesting just as parents are looking at where, you know, where their kiddo is like, Hmm, maybe we could start. And just to have a shared language around that too, right. To be able to say, I get it. Like, I understand this is what we, you know, how can we help you put some of these things in place? So yeah. Amazing. That just, thank you so much. This has been incredibly enlightening. And, uh, So, so glad you're there for those guys. And, you know, just working, working through that with them. It's so important, especially if, if it has been multiple rounds of treatment, I think there can be that sense of despair, not just for them, but also for their families, right? Is this ever going to take hold?

Stefan: 49:43

Yeah. Or, or a firm belief that it's not

Brenda: 49:46

right.

Stefan: 49:47

I'm doing this again, but I really don't think it'll work. That's how I showed up at Jay Walker. I knew, I knew I do good in treatment once again. And then I would, I would not be able to stay sober outside. I knew that to be true.

Brenda: 50:00

And

Stefan: 50:01

here we are, 18 years later. Here we

Brenda: 50:03

are, 18 years, still proving yourself wrong.

Stefan: 50:06

That's right.

Brenda: 50:07

All right. Well, thank you so much.

Stefan: 50:09

Oh, thank you so much, Brenda.

Brenda: 50:11

Okay, my friend, if you want the transcript or show notes and resources from this episode, just go to hopestreamcommunity. org and click on podcast. That'll take you to all things podcast related, including the full library. a search feature if you're looking for something specific, and also playlists where we have grouped together episodes on things like craft, recovery stories, solo episodes, siblings. We even have a start here playlist if you're new. Those are super helpful, so be sure to check them out. I also want to let you know about a free ebook you can download if you're feeling anxious and confused about how to approach your child's substance misuse. The book is called Worried Sick. A compassionate guide for parents of teens and young adults misusing drugs and alcohol and it'll introduce you to ways that you can rebuild connection and relationship with your child versus distance and let them hit rock bottom. It is a game changer. It's totally free. Just go to HopeStreamCommunity. org forward slash worried. To download that. You are amazing. You are such a rock star, a super elite level parent. It's truly an honor to be here with you, and please know you are not doing this alone. You've got this tribe, and you will be okay. You'll make it through this season, and when you do, you are going to be stronger and more resilient than you ever thought possible. I'm sending all my love and light, and I'll meet you right back here next week.