How Nutrition Lays the Groundwork for Substance Use Recovery, Plus His Own Inspiring Story, with Dr. David Wiss

ABOUT THE EPISODE:
When Dr. David Wiss got out of jail the second time, he was determined to change his life.  But he had no fancy treatment program to take him out of his environment, no medication, and very little therapy. Instead, his recovery was realized through a dedication to healthy eating, exercise, and sunlight.

Today, David is the founder of Nutrition in Recovery - a group that specializes in treating eating and substance use disorders - as well as the developer of a specialized nutrition curriculum that has been incorporated at more than 50 treatment centers around the world.  His years of study bring together the biological, psychological, and social aspects of nutrition for a truly holistic understanding of its role and importance in recovery and healthy living.  David has spent more than 10,000 hours in one-on-one nutrition counseling, and today we all get to benefit from that incredible knowledge.

In this episode, we discuss why healthy, principled eating is so important to the recovery process, how it provides meaning for young people looking to belong, why kids who misuse substances are often drawn to conspiracy theories, and how understanding the actual conspiracies of food and drug corporations can be a step in the right direction. 

EPISODE RESOURCES:

• Dr. David Wiss's website
• Alice Baker, MSRD CEDS-C LMHC LPC LD/N website
• Alice Baker on Hopestream ep. 221

This podcast is part of a nonprofit called Hopestream Community
Learn about The Stream, our private online community for moms
Find us on Instagram here
Find us on YouTube here
Download a free e-book, Worried Sick: A Compassionate Guide For Parents When Your Teen or Young Adult Child Misuses Drugs and Alcohol

Hopestream Community is a registered 501(c)3 nonprofit organization and an Amazon Associate. We may make a small commission if you purchase from our links.

This podcast is part of a nonprofit called Hopestream Community
Learn about The Stream, our private online community for moms
Find us on Instagram here
Find us on YouTube here
Download a free e-book, Worried Sick: A Compassionate Guide For Parents When Your Teen or Young Adult Child Misuses Drugs and Alcohol

Hopestream Community is a registered 501(c)3 nonprofit organization and an Amazon Associate. We may make a small commission if you purchase from our links.

Transcript

David: 0:05

I didn't really benefit that much from therapy. I had a few therapists in my treatment center for a few months. I didn't take any medications, right? It was the thing. I needed to do this. I needed to eat right and I needed to learn how to exercise and get sunlight and drink water and live in, in my community and show up for people. That was my recovery.

Brenda: 0:34

You're listening to HopeStream. If you're parenting a young person who misuses substances, is in a treatment program, or finding their way to recovery, You're in the right place. This is your private space to learn from experts and gain encouragement and support from me, Brenda Zane, your host and follow mom to a child who struggled. This podcast is just one of the resources we offer for parents. So after the episode, head over to our website at hopestreamcommunity. org. I'm so glad you're here. Take a deep breath, exhale, and know that you have found your people. And now let's get into today's show. Hey friend, I am so happy to get to hang out with you today and spend a little bit of time on one of my all time favorite subjects, food and nutrition. This topic is near and dear to my heart because starting way back in college, I struggled with digestive issues, eventually figuring out that I am 1000 percent lactose intolerant. And then eventually learned I'm also gluten intolerant. And then after an extremely unfortunate incident that involved an airplane meal on my way to Jakarta, Indonesia, way too many antibiotics in my childhood, the stress of a divorce and a child who ended up struggling with a risky lifestyle and substance misuse. I pretty much obliterated anything good that was going on in my gut. And since about 2020, I have been actively working on repairing all of that damage. It has been a long road, and things are better, but not fantastic. Food and eating and wellness, even if you don't have a substance use disorder, is complex. And for those who do have an unhealthy relationship with substances, it can play a really important role in getting better. My guest today is Dr. David Wiss, who I was introduced to by a member of the stream and a friend who's a therapist who specializes in eating disorders. She interestingly became such a fan of the Invitation to Change approach that she has gotten certified and then adapted the approach to work with her clients and their family members on eating disorders. You can hear her, Alice Baker, on episode 221, and I will include a link to her website in the show notes in case you need to reach out to her. David Wyss became a registered dietitian nutritionist, RDN, in 2013 and founded Nutrition in Recovery, the group that specializes in treating eating and substance use disorders. During this time, David developed a specialized nutrition curriculum that has been incorporated at more than 50 addiction treatment centers in Southern California and worldwide. In his profession as a nutritionist, David consults and develops nutrition protocols for clients in treatment. He also regularly conducts staff trainings for professionals and speaks at conferences on topics including disordered eating, gut health, and trauma informed nutrition. In 2017, David graduated from UCLA's Fielding School of Public Health in the Community Health Sciences Department with a minor in health psychology. He earned his doctor of philosophy degree in 2022 by investigating the links between adverse childhood experiences and various mental health outcomes among socially disadvantaged men. Dr. Wyss has spent over 10, 000 hours conducting one on one nutrition counseling to clients and their families. His treatment philosophy is based on a biopsychosocial model that incorporates an understanding of biological mechanisms, psychological underpinnings, and contextual factors that integrate the social determinants of health. He is also a person in long term recovery. If you have ever wondered about the link between or the importance of nutrition in relation to substance use, This is your episode. It is a fascinating conversation, and I know you're going to get a lot out of it. So take a listen to Dr. David Wiss and me talk all things food, nutrition, and recovery. Enjoy. Dr. David Wiss. Yes, we are rolling. We finally made it happen. I'm so excited to talk food and nutrition. I think my listeners know it's one of my favorite topics. So important. So thanks for hopping on with me and joining me on HopeStream.

David: 5:45

I love food and nutrition, but I also love talking about hope. So let's pack some hope into the stream of life.

Brenda: 5:51

Man, we need so much hope, right? These are some crazy days. We need as much hope as possible, especially for the parents who are just in the thick of it. And even parents, you know, we have a lot of parents who are listening whose kids are in early recovery. And that can still be a tricky time because it's, you know, it's the waiting for the other shoe to drop, right? So yes, hope. Hope is a big part of my life. But thanks for joining me. I don't know that nutrition and food and eating and eating disorders and disordered eating and the whole ball of wax gets enough attention. For me, I know when my son was struggling, I would have been like, what are you talking about? I just want him to not die today. Right? Like I just want him to smoke less, take less pills, like whatever it is. And so. I'm thrilled to have somebody with a lot of expertise in that area. However, I would love for you to rewind because you are a person in recovery, which at first I didn't know. I did find that out and I think it would be great for you just to Tap into that a little bit. Let us know kind of where you're coming from and and then how this became a passion for you

David: 7:08

Yeah, sure. I'm from West Los Angeles counterculture late 90s early 2000s we had the rave scene going it was exciting it was like the rave scene the first wave of the opioid crises and I was a undergrad I actually did my undergrad at USC and that's University of Southern California. And I was, I was partying and all was going well until it wasn't, you know, things start to take a turn and the priority lists change. I'm really just focused on recovering from getting loaded and preparing for the next time. The intervals of sobriety just get briefer and briefer. And then I'm just loaded all day, every day. And it was just like the classic progression, everything you could imagine from the. All the softer stuff to all the harder stuff. There was criminality and transactions involved because that's a necessity. There was always driving under the influence. You know, those are the kind of ways that people like me end up in the criminal justice system. You know, we end up with DUIs, we end up with possession, possession for sales, you name it. Yeah, I have one of those stories, a tailspin and in 2005, 2006, I, I lived in three treatment centers, two correctional facilities and one hospital detox. And I finally got separated in September of 2006, right there in my own backyard. I had tried going like geographically distant to start over. And I ended up. Yeah, getting a chance to recreate my life from the inside out right there in Culver City. Like literally at a, at a nonprofit treatment center, walking distance from where I went to high school. So it was like very significant to me. Like my, you know, my, A lot of the wreckage that I caused and the people that I ran with lived walking distance from the treatment center. So it wasn't even like, Oh, I'm going to go to some remote place, like, and then come home. Like I got, I got started again in my own backyard and it was, it was different. You know, cause I had to learn how to navigate the environment that I lived in. It was a lot.

Brenda: 9:19

That's really, that's interesting that you say that because I hear a lot and I know my son really struggled with all of the triggers that are local to where all of the chaos happened. How did you navigate that?

David: 9:34

I mean, I had already been through like some treatments before. So it, it, it, I was surrendered at this point. I was in the criminal justice system. I had to call every single day and see if I needed to go in and test randomly that went on for three years and eight months. So like, I, you know, I was considered a high risk and right. So. It wasn't like I was new to this at this point, like I had attempted, you know, restarts on my life and this one was like, all right, here we are. This is my chance. Like, you know, they're, they're telling me they want me to work in the thrift store. Like, I'm going to do it. It wasn't like I'm fighting and I'm trying to, uh, you know, uh, feed my own egoic desires and needs. I was like, uh, I'll do whatever at this point because I had been in some low spots, you know, I had, I spent two weeks in the hole, you know, prior to that solitary confinement, getting fed through a door. You know what I mean? Like I, I, I bottomed out pretty bad. You know what I mean? Yeah. I was ready for a different life. I had 80, 000 worth of debt from a lawsuit. Yeah, one of my cases was a a DUI, which I was at fault and there was an, there was an injury, very minor, but like, it was still like enough for a civil case and a criminal case and I, you know, lost both of them. Needless to say. So yeah, the circumstances were, were, were, were challenging, but I think that was actually probably in my best interest because it helped me like really see the need for a different way of life. So when it came time to like, you know, be interested in recovery, like they didn't have to sell me on it. They didn't have to, you know what I mean? Like, and I was just motivated to, uh, seek change in a way that I hadn't been before. And for me, that was like, not just Staying sober. It really was, you know, sunlight and exercise and I started eating fruits and vegetables and this facility, they had like a salad bar that no one ever touched because it was like comfort food. And I was like, Hey, like what are these things? Like I didn't care that the beets were from a big can. Like I, I wanted to eat them. You know what I mean? I wanted to eat protein and fruits and vegetables and I didn't have a nutritionist. No one told me. It was like, just super obvious to me that I needed to do the things that I wasn't doing before doing the things that I had been doing all along. Like it was that I was like, Oh, just, just stop eating the things that you always used to eat and eat the things that you never ate. And I was, it was like, it was that simple, right? It really was. It was like, just drink water, eat all those colorful foods and focus on the proteins. Right. And like, don't eat, you know, ultra processed food. We didn't use that term at the time, but like, that's basically what it was. And yeah, I started having pretty profound shifts personally. People noticed it, you know, for me, a lot of it early on was just vanity. Like I wanted to get in shape and like be sober and look good. And I think that that's a normal need, right. For people to want to feel. A part of a peer group or feel accepted, but I was shocked at the mental health changes that occurred eating differently and, you know, lifting weights. My anxiety started to fade and I just started to show up to life in a way that felt safer to people. You know, it wasn't like in trauma recovery, we talk about threat vigilance, right? Like moving through life, just detecting threats everywhere and like, you know, feeling unsafe around other people and giving off the impression of unsafety. I just started to feel just be a little bit warmer. You know, be a little bit softer. My skin was a little bit more full in terms of the body of color. Right. And it just gave people a different impression. And, uh, yeah, people noticed it and they gave me feedback and they were like, Hey, what are you doing? Can you help me? You know? So I started helping people in that area. First kind of real job in sobriety was personal trainer and then I was helping people with nutrition and then I was like back in school, I was working a couple other jobs. I had some really interesting job as a private tutor for a kid that had special needs, which was super fun for me, but topic for another day. I ended up going back to school to get a master's degree and become a registered dietitian. I worked like throughout the whole thing and then after that, built my practice nutrition and recovery, which you know, has been alive and well for 12 years. And then, uh, got my PhD from UCLA in public health and health psychology. And I did, uh, trauma research, mental health research, and I've sort of linked nutrition and mental health. So I get to be a miracle.

Brenda: 14:37

Oh my gosh. I have. 5, 000 questions about that whole story. If I don't ask this one though, all my listeners are going to bail on me. Was there something in particular that flipped the switch for you where you said, okay, I am done. Like on this day, from this day forward, I am not going that route anymore or was it more gradual? Because this is the number one question parents have is like what Was the thing.

David: 15:11

Yeah, it was both, you know, in, in recovery, we talk about spiritual experiences that are sudden and profound versus, you know, uh, uh, others that are more gradual or sometimes we call it of the educational variety. I had both, you know, it was, it was a combination. There was definitely pivotal moments. When, you know, I had conversations with people or, or, or heard someone sharing about recovery in a way that resonated with me. They're both of value because, you know, I, I see a lot of people that have big moments, big. Big aha moments. But like those don't necessarily last forever either. So like, can't rely on those. You know what I mean? Like you want to have a big I'm done moment. But like what we know about addiction and alcoholism is that like, even after that, the mind can change its orientations and whatnot. So yeah, there was a couple of pivotal moments, a couple, couple of conversations that I remember having with people. You know, when I just remember really knowing that, like, that wasn't the life that I wanted anymore. You know, like people that used to be my heroes were now like unsafe, threatening people that I didn't want anything to do with anymore. You know what I mean?

Brenda: 16:28

Right. Right. That's so interesting. And I guess being fed through the window of a jail cell where you're in solitary confinement, that probably, you know, we talk about the gift of desperation. Like I'm guessing that that's probably a big component of that is. Spending time alone. I can't even imagine spending one day like that. So amazing. And then the food thing. So interesting that you were like, well, I'm just going to do the opposite of what I was doing.

David: 17:01

Ice cream from the rooftop. Like we need a nutrition education group and all the treatment centers. And my company provides that service. But at the end of the day, yeah, a lot of people need education because they lack it. But most people know what, what health promoting food is and what health promoting food isn't. It's not the lack of information. It's like, what are the steps? How do you prepare yourself? How do you get your gut ready to receive some of these new foods? That tends to really, you know, make a difference, but yeah, I knew, I knew what foods I should be eating. No one had to tell me. It was a beautiful process. So it was almost like the universe picked me to be a nutritionist.

Brenda: 17:40

Absolutely. And I saw that you, I saw somewhere that you talked about trauma informed nutrition, which I thought was fascinating. So I'd love to have you talk about that. But also, can you explain. What is a functional nutritionist versus a registered dietitian versus like, you know, you see people now they can set up a website and hang a shingle that says, I'm going to help you with all your food issues. And that can be a little scary. Cause like, what do they know?

David: 18:14

Where you

Brenda: 18:14

have years and years and years of education, tell us what we need to know and who to trust.

David: 18:20

It's an ongoing culture war in my field, you know, because it's a, it's a very unregulated and Unclear to the general public and. There's a lot of conflicts of interest and it makes it really, really muddy. So like, you know, technically the registered dietitian nutritionist is the only real recognized healthcare professional, you know, but the criticism is that a lot of, we, we are trained to work in the Western medicine model. So a lot of registered dietitians go through school, like being taught, you're the only one, you're the expert, everyone else is a quack. When in reality, like. Yeah. A lot of our education is highly tainted by big food, big Pharma, big ag. And so like the, a lot of the general public looks at the registered dietitian credential and they're like, yeah, we don't really trust you. Like you take money from food companies to promote junk food, right? So like, yeah, there's a proliferation of other nutrition professionals. And I say culture wars because dietitians are always so bummed about. Other, you know, whatever terms they, none of those terms have any real meaning, holistic nutritionist, functional nutritionist. I mean, there's probably a certification out there for some of them, and some of them might even be registered dietitians. Uh, but you know, there are some excellent practitioners out there that aren't registered dietician, uh, nutritionists you know, but there's also a lot of people that are just using their own experience and their coaching and, you know, possibly. But yeah, as a recognized healthcare professional, I am able to order some lab tests and do some things. I wasn't satisfied as a registered dietitian nutritionist only, which is why I went on to get a doctorate. And so doing mental health research and like bringing it all together. But it is sort of a bummer that the nutrition field is highly marginalized. Insurance doesn't really cover it. You know, the, the, the, the way the income is low. And so people are bummed out and then they're just fighting amongst each other rather than joining forces and being like, Hey, the, the food companies are like up to no good. We need to join forces and talk about the real systemic issues. You're left with the functional nutritionist fighting the dietitian in the Instagram comments, the person who's promoting the dieter versus the person who says, I'm anti diet, you need to like stop counting calories, right? The carnivore versus the vegan, we're just infighting and getting nowhere. And patients are confused and people don't know who to trust, right? And that's kind of what I think the big industries want, you know, that's the, that's the playbook per se.

Brenda: 21:08

So you talked about, you started to really see shifts in your mental health. When you started eating differently, which had to be pretty cool because a lot of times we're just relying on pharmaceuticals. Right. So I would love to have you talk about that and then talk about what is trauma informed. Nutrition. I don't know if I, I don't know if I have that term. Right. Do I have that term?

David: 21:31

Yeah. Yeah. It was, it's been buzzing the last few years. But yeah, my experience with nutrition in recovery was such that I did become, like I mentioned, sort of a. fitness fanatic. And I also believe that that was huge in rewiring my brain. There's a lot of evidence to suggest that, you know, brain derived neurotrophic factors and the neuroplasticity of combining movement, right? Like it helped rewire my brain combined with, you know, food that was high in protein and antioxidants and, you know, a lot of vitamins, minerals, fiber for gut health. All of it together really showed up when it was time for me to go back to school. You know, like I come from a long history of staying awake for three and four and five days at a time and not being able to focus. So when it was time for me to like, you know, in that first wave of going back to school, I remember it was like, I needed to smoke a cigarette every 20 minutes in order to like focus. And then at some point, you know, I was like, I remember finishing my undergrad, going back to. A community college to get some core science stuff for the nutrition path, like really being in a situation where I needed to, like, study for some really difficult tests that were outside of my, you know, purview, right, and like, stay at home all day and like, you know, read textbooks and, and underline and then make note cards like the old school way, you know, say them out loud. And I just remember like using reading. Yeah. You know, nutrition and getting off of the nicotine and right. Like keeping the caffeine reasonable. And yeah, that, that's when I was like, wow, my brain is rewired. It's I'm able to focus, you know, like I can speak clearly. I can say what I mean and mean what I say. And I can give a presentation and feel confident that like, I'm going to deliver the thoughts that are in my head, you know, the cognitive clarity. And that gave me a lot of confidence in life, you know. To be able to like know that I could go do other things. So yes, of course, the nutrition for mental health path was anxiety reduction, but it was also, it was also like a clarity that comes from knowing that you're on the right path and of course, like. There was meditation and recovery and other stuff going on that all contributed to that, but to have the kind of mind where you can trust your thoughts again, you know what I mean? Cause like in addiction recovery, you kind of learn that your mind is your worst enemy and it's going to trick you. Hey

Brenda: 24:28

there, are you feeling stuck in a cycle of drama and arguments with your child, worried sick about their substance use? I have been there and I want you to know there's hope. This podcast is just one piece of the curated and trustworthy resources and solutions we offer for parents. We recognize you need emotional support and a solid plan for moving forward, making positive change in your family. So in addition to connecting with other parents and feeling like you're part of something bigger, we also teach you practical skills and strategies. To dial down the drama and diffuse those heated moments, we step you through the evidence based craft approach, a game changer that can help you invite your child to accept help without resorting to tough love or waiting for rock bottom. We have so much more than the podcast waiting for you. Head over to hopestreamcommunity. org to tap into all our resources and become part of the Hopestream family in our private online community. Remember, you are not alone in this. We're doing it together. Now let's get back to the conversation. What was the timeframe like from the time when you got into recovery to where you started feeling that? Because I, I do see there's a delay, right? It doesn't just happen overnight. I think parents get really confused too when you're looking at your 19 year old or your 22 year old and you're like, well wait, they've been sober for a year. But I'm still seeing some of this, you know, like brain fog or there's not like, there's still not a lot of traction there. So what would you say about that timeframe?

David: 26:23

I moved pretty darn quickly. You know, I think I quit smoking at six. six or seven months sober. I was doing Gracie jujitsu. I walked 60 miles at eight months sober, uh, with a bunch of black belts. And I climbed Mount Whitney, the highest point in the continental United States at one year sober. Like I was a monster speaking on like big, you know, conferences by, I moved quickly into sobriety and it was like the nutrition and the exercise, the spirituality, all the things like. accelerated it. It was deeply synergistic for me that I became like an example of recovery quickly. Uh, needless to say, it was like all I was focused on in that period of my life. It wasn't like, Oh, I was juggling all these other things. Like I, I was very socially advantaged to the point where I could really like be in school work and do recovery and like not feel like a lot of pressure. I had some social support, family support. I felt like the world was rooting for me. You know what I mean?

Brenda: 27:25

Yeah. Yeah. Do you, do you think, so I know in a lot of, you know, like traditional detoxes and rehabs that the food is like, you talked about comfort food, like Burgers and pizza. And it's almost what I feel like, okay, we've taken away your, your thing, you know, you're not going to have your alcohol or you're not going to have your, whatever you're taking. But here, look at all this crazy, amazing food that you're going to get to eat, which obviously is not doing a great service, but how do you start to get somebody's head around, like, Oh, no, I don't get to eat the pizza and I'm not going to eat the big greasy burgers.

David: 28:07

That's a great question. You know, my company, Nutrition and Recovery, we do this work and I consult for lots of different levels of care. And there's always a question of like, how soon is too soon? Yeah. Let's give them, let's let them like go through detox and then bring it up later. And then there's also other points of view, which is like, no, they're having GI issues right now. The time for behavior change is. Right now, their brain is right. The biggest time is when someone like actually transitions out of any sort of assisted living and they're, they're on their own. Right. Freaky, like, you know, we teach nutrition groups at outpatients where people live in a sober living and they have either some sort of a chef or they order food or, right? They're not really cooking food on their own. So you know, the information that we provide should match the food environment and it usually doesn't, you know? There's nothing more annoying than coming into a rehab and teaching them about walnuts. And they're like, well, they don't serve walnuts here. So, you know, thanks, but right. So like we have to do food service consulting as well. But yeah, I, I think it depends on the person. I really think that some people have biology. That's very much more sensitive to a nutrition intervention than others. Like some people have. You know, pathology that is rooted in nutrition related stuff and other people might not, which is why some people are just don't feel interested in nutrition. It doesn't, doesn't feel relevant. I'm not saying that it's not relevant for all people, but there's some people. And I was one of them where it was like, no, this is actually the thing that needs to be addressed in order for me to be well, right? It's not like some add on bonus, like. I didn't really benefit that much from therapy. I had a few therapists in my treatment center for a few months. I didn't take any medications, right? It was the thing. I needed to do this. I needed to eat right. And I needed to learn how to exercise and get sunlight and drink water and live in, in my community and show up for people. That was my recovery. Right. And, and so for some people that's not going to be their jam. I think it's wise to like start the conversation early so you could figure out like, you know, does this resonate with you? Sometimes people that are the most off put by it are the people that need it the most because they have the resistance or the disordered eating or the. Addiction, like eating, which brings us to your question about trauma informed nutrition. There's a lot of different interpretations of the term trauma informed. I think in, in one context points to this different set of assumptions and understanding of why human behavior is what it is, a great need for sensitivity, not wanting to you know, put too much pressure on someone that could backfire. But based on my, you know, PhD dissertation and a lot of the work that I do with trauma and addictions, trauma informed also means, and this is like what I'm trying to add to the conversation, how trauma gets biologically embedded, how it actually gets underneath our skin, how it affects our physiology in ways that really influence human behavior. So when we think about the strong link between trauma and addiction. We know that trauma, particularly in the first 18 years of life. And of course, the collective legacy of certain types of trauma can make the brain more susceptible to addictive processes, literally changes the brain changes the nervous system. There's a lot of. mechanisms that link, for example, adverse childhood experiences to addiction and addiction like eating, right? We know that people that have trauma are more likely to live in larger bodies. They're more likely to have eating disorders. They're more likely to diet, right? So you start to understand. Some of the biological mechanisms and that being, that being understood, you can start to think about interventions that might be helpful. Like if you know someone has a lot of adverse childhood experiences, you can assume that, you know, maybe there's some imprints that were left on the, on the gut. Maybe, right. There's more of a. Salience or, or more attention to hedonic processes or other types of addiction. So you can start to be informed by the social context of trauma as well as the biology of trauma. Right. And then of course we bring it all together with the psychology that the language that we use to talk to people, the meaning that people ascribe to these events and otherwise in their lives. And so, yeah, I think that trauma informed nutrition is a perfect example of what we call a bio psycho social issue where you got to look at it from all the different lenses and integrate it together. And I guess the last thing I'll say about it is some people have. You know, like a feeling of not really fitting into this world. It's common among people in recovery. Like people say, I was crawling out of my skin. I never really felt. You know, like I belonged anywhere, right? Like I'm a stranger in this world. And sometimes that's just the negative effects of trauma. And sometimes it's like, no, it's actually, there is something off in this world. There is like, there is imbalances, structural inequalities, uh, the commercial determinants of health, right? There's like. Things going on in the food world and in the pharmaceutical world that are like unsavory and unsafe and there's some people that just sort of pick up on that energy, right? And so sometimes helping people navigate, this could be like in a group setting or an individual setting, is yeah, actually validating the fact that like, yeah, the food supply is not super safe. You know, like it's actually true. There are people in corporations that are on the take. There's, there's misleading information, right? There's a lot of unsavory energy out there. And you can actually learn how to be someone who eats in alignment with your values, right? Like sometimes people don't want to eat ultra processed food because, Oh, it's like, it has more salt and has more sugar. But other times people get inspired to stop eating that food because like there's greedy corporations that are marketing it to children and causing environmental damage. You know what I'm saying? And it's like, Oh, I don't want to support these companies. Right. And you're like, I want to eat real food. Not because my mom told me to when I was 16 or because it has too much sodium, but because I care about this world and I have a set of values that sets me apart and I'm a distinct entity, right? I do not like go with the flow. I am not satisfied with the status quo. I want to see systemic change. And I want to vote with my fork and vote with my wallet and I want to learn how to cook food because these food corporations do not have my best interest in mind. Fact is, because I'm a person in recovery, I'm actually being targeted. I'm a vulnerable person that's being targeted by food companies to buy monsters, chips, soda, candy, to eat fast food. And my brain is more attuned to those foods. Therefore, unless I do something about it, I'm just going to buy them. And the likelihood of ending up with chronic disease or, you know, other ongoing cross addictions is high. So you really kind of learn how to drop out of the system and like kind of take some charge of our lives and of our health. And those are the macro conversations around nutrition, not just Calories and vitamins and minerals, but like the real issues that are like, really, really important to society that I've gotten politicized. I mean, it's a whole can of worms nowadays.

Brenda: 36:01

Yeah. I think the concept of, I think you said eating in accordance with your values is so huge, especially for somebody who is looking at a, a crossroads in their life, right? Like, okay, I could keep going this way. Or I could go this way and to understand, I have the agency to make these decisions for myself. What is going to go in my mouth and what's not going to go in my mouth is so powerful. And, and like you said, with, you know, somebody who is prone to addiction, to know that these foods are not doing you any. Service, right. The, the highly processed foods and all of that. And to just, I, I almost also love it because it can give somebody something else to focus on besides just, oh, I can't drink anymore. Oh, I can't take my drug of choice anymore. Like, No, we're going to, let's shift the focus over here and put you in charge of something that's so powerful that can radically change your life.

David: 37:07

That's

Brenda: 37:07

right. And that seems like it would be a really cool thing if you can get the hook in, right? Of like, let's go over here.

David: 37:15

And it's a gateway to spirituality too, right? They're deeply connected. Cause a big reason why people are able to stay sober is because they have an experience, which connects them to the universe with a capital U, right? Like, and you feel more a part of. Uh, nature, right? And like, if someone is walking down the aisles and like, you know, picking pack, branded packaged products that are sold by corporations that don't care about public health, that's very different than going to a farmer's market and like talking to the person who grew your food and like picking one out and like feeling like you're part of an ecosystem. Right. And so nutrition can actually represent a bridge toward. Someone living in harmony with their environment in a way that is conducive to long term recovery. And, you know, I'll say this when I think back to 2006. Fall, winter, right? Like when I got, uh, uh, separated and started my life over, like I didn't have those values yet. Like I was flicking my cigarette on the floor because I was in survival mode. I was in crises management mode. Like I didn't really care about the environment. Okay. Let's be honest. I just needed to figure out how I was going to make some money and get out of debt. You know what I mean? Like, where was I going to live? These were like the pressing issues. But as I like got into recovery, Okay. And started to like meditate and feel more connected. Those were the things that showed I was like, I was like, Oh, when I flick my cigarette and I litter, I am actually contributing to the issues that are in the world. And I started to reevaluate those things and be like, Oh, it's actually not that great to smoke cigarettes. Not just because of me, because I am energetically contributing to the issues in the world. Right. And I, I was able to, to stop that at some point. And so building those values took me some time, you know? And I would say it's only like, I'm 18 years separated. It's only in the last few years that I really cared about the environment. Like it took me a long time, you know what I mean? To like actually be in nature and be like, Oh, there's an intelligence here that I was unaware of. Oh, these little animals. They have their own consciousness too, wow, they're laughing at us because we think we're so smart and we think we're so great and we're not, you know?

Brenda: 39:40

Yes, I, I, I agree. It's like the more you know and the more you learn, it's like, oh my goodness, how did I not know this? But so many of, of the, the young people that do struggle with substance use and addiction are highly sensitive. Right, to emotional sensitivity, but also just tactical, you know, noise and sound and taste and all of that. And I'm, and I'm sure that that's probably deeper in their body as well. So food and nutrition matters a lot for them. And also I think there's a tendency that I have seen, I have no scientific research on this whatsoever, that there's a lot of conspiracy theory. beliefs like in the, in young people who struggle, I don't know what it is, but I hear about it all the time. Parents are always like, oh my gosh, my kid has this conser, you know, this big conspiracy theory. Yeah.

David: 40:37

Oh my God, I have so many thoughts about that. I have so many thoughts and I, I, I just don't know how much time we have, but I know

Brenda: 40:44

right?, David: I a lot of thought because I'm an academic, right? Like I am very attuned to reality for the most part. But like, I'm also deeply drawn to what people would call conspiracy theories, right? And, and, and, you know, if you really look at the facts and stuff like that, you kind of realize that like, Oh, there's a long history of conspiracies in our world, so like, these aren't crazy things to think, right? It's like, not crazy to think that the CIA would do something that was deceptive when like you look at it, you think back and look at time, you're like, wait, they brought cocaine into South Central Los Angeles to decimate the community with crack cocaine? Like, did that actually happen? You know, like, why would it be so far fetched that certain things, right? But I, I think the best answer to your question, and God, I'm so glad you asked this because I was actually talking to someone about it the other day, is that if someone feels a part of society and they just feel like they fit in and society has done them good, There's no reason to like start building a case against it. Right. Yeah. If someone is is benefiting from the status quo like you like for example They went to medical school and they became a doctor and they've got this kind of great life, you know They've got a great salary and they're able to provide for their family And they're satisfied with the way that society has uplifted them, right? It, it doesn't make any sense that they would go down a rabbit hole about vaccinations. You know what I'm saying? It just doesn't make sense because that would create too much internal conflict or what we call cognitive dissonance. Right? And so the person that is actually benefited from society. Would be more likely to, uh, be interested in just kind of maintaining the status quo and not questioning, uh, stuff. Uh, alternatively If someone is fringy and they've been marginalized and they've actually been like in systems and basically learned that they don't belong here, you don't fit in society actually doesn't like you. You've been stigmatized, right? You've internalized all this stigma. It makes sense that someone would have a bias toward looking for alternative explanations for this world. Right, right. So yes, when I have taught nutrition education in substance use disorder treatment centers and I do focus on The commercial determinant to health or what the food industry is up to behind the scenes engineering food to be more profitable per se. Those are things that resonate with people because you're like, ah, yeah, this world is actually not that savory, not that safe. You know, I don't actually belong here. I'm good with that. That makes sense. F the world. You know what I mean? Yes. Yes. So yeah, it makes sense. And I'll say a lot, there's a lot of weird conspiracy theories out there, but some of the stuff that has to do with health. You know a lot of it is very, very accurate. In terms of like the FDA, the CDC, right, the USDA, they've all been captured by big corporate interests and they have incredible resources to spin narratives and to completely control the public discourse around food, to hire scientists, to hire nutritionists. And they're able to completely confuse the masses that are satisfied with the status quo. And they've been getting away with it for decades. And now, finally, I've been screaming this stuff from the rooftop. Finally, for the first time in a while, there's voices now, like, on the, at the national level, that are saying, Hey, we're not okay with this. And it's an exciting thing to see. Let's say a young person has come home and now they do have some agency over what they're going to be eating. What are just some of like the baseline changes that if somebody is listening and they're like, Oh my gosh, my kid's coming home from treatment that they could make that would start to turn the tables a little bit.

David: 44:50

Yeah. I mean, in general, like for individuals are. main message is like, focus on, you know, what to eat rather than what not to eat. That tends to be like a much safer thing of like, it's easy to pull out everything that has high fructose corn syrup. And right. If it has this many grams of sugar, you know, it's like at the end of the day, it's like you want to have healthy food available. Right. Uh, in a treatment setting, if you have healthy food available, but you also have these other things. So yeah, basic things that we do, obviously he's thinking about beverages, right? That's like sort of number one. It's like if we can start making spa waters instead of sweetened beverages, you know, that minerals and electrolytes and stuff like, you know, cucumber, lemon, mint waters, and things of that nature. That's a huge win. Fiber, whole grains, not, not just doing white flour and, and white rice, but like actually trying to integrate the quinoas and the faros as starches at meals. Colorful fruits and vegetables that are like, you know, fresh or frozen, uh, frozen fruit for smoothies and basically just you know, really focusing on the kinds of fats. A lot of the fats in the contemporary food supply are inflammatory. So we want to focus on making our own salad dressings. Getting a lot of nuts and seeds, avocados, coconuts, olives, and, uh, high protein tends to matter for a lot of people. And then just colors, you know, eating the rainbow, making it fun, learning how to cook, picking food out from grocery stores and farmer's markets and things of that nature tends to really make a difference for people. But yeah, hands on nutrition is the key. You could give someone a hundred PowerPoint presentations and it won't have the same impact as making a smoothie with them one time.

Brenda: 46:41

Yeah, absolutely. And parents can benefit from this too, because our, our guts and our entire. health system gets wrecked when our kids are struggling. I, I have yet to hear anybody say, Oh yeah, no, I'm, I'm doing great with my nutrition and everything's good, even though my kids off the rails. So that's a side bonus as well. You can improve your own wellness. Well, I am going to make sure and put links in the show notes to your wise, my nutrition app. Cause that is something that people can download and use. Yeah.

David: 47:16

Yeah. I spent the last two and a half years of my life, uh, completely obsessed with building an app so that people could improve their nutrition, uh, for mental health outcomes. At a no cost, low cost option. So, uh, for people in early recovery, being able to set some intentions, do a nightly review every day, look back at, you know, your eating behavior. If you logged meals, get daily videos, meditations, recipes. I basically built the ultimate companion for someone in recovery that needed support in this area. And I made it so that anyone could afford it. It's like for the person who's ready for change. Why is my nutrition is perfect. It's built so that people can connect to each other if you know someone's username. So like I had a group of women in a sober living all following each other and giving each other support, you know, for their, for their food choices, et cetera. And it's non diet trauma informed, super safe, super excited about it. The wise mind nutrition website also has. 90 something blogs about the intersection of nutrition and mental health, including resources for substance use disorder recovery, depression, etc.

Brenda: 48:31

Yeah. I went down a little bit of a rabbit hole there. I was like, Oh my gosh, there's so much here, but the app is amazing. So we'll put links in the show notes to that so everybody can find it and thank you for all the education and wisdom and just knowing that there's a resource out here focused on it is just super powerful. So thank you so much for your work.

David: 48:55

Yeah, you're so welcome. And my practice is called nutrition and recovery. That's where I do the one on one work.

Brenda: 49:00

Nutrition and recovery. Can people do that? Virtual or do they have to be in virtual

David: 49:05

all over the world? I work with all walks of life, including care.

Brenda: 49:09

Including parents. I love it. All right. Well, we will get links to all of that in the, in the show notes for people. Thank you so much. You got it. Okay. My friend, if you want the transcript or show notes and resources from this episode, just go to hopestreamcommunity. org and click on podcast. That'll take you to all things podcast related, including the full library. a search feature if you're looking for something specific, and also playlists where we have grouped together episodes on things like craft, recovery stories, solo episodes, siblings. We even have a start here playlist if you're new. Those are super helpful, so be sure to check them out. I also want to let you know about a free ebook you can download if you're feeling anxious and confused about how to approach your child's substance misuse. The book is called Worried Sick. A compassionate guide for parents of teens and young adults misusing drugs and alcohol and it'll introduce you to ways that you can rebuild connection and relationship with your child versus distance and let them hit rock bottom. It is a game changer. It's totally free. Just go to hopestreamcommunity. org forward slash worried. To download that. You are amazing. You are such a rock star, a super elite level parent. It's truly an honor to be here with you, and please know you are not doing this alone. You've got this tribe, and you will be okay. You'll make it through this season, and when you do, you are going to be stronger and more resilient than you ever thought possible. I'm sending all my love and light, and I'll meet you right back here next week.