The Joy You Make: Uplifting Wisdom for Difficult Parenting Journeys, with Steven Petrow

ABOUT THE EPISODE:

When Steven Petrow's mother died in 2017, he decided to take up a practice that he'd heard about but never tried: gratitude journaling. As an award-winning journalist for the New York Times and Washington Post and author of several books, he was intimately familiar with writing. But finding joy amidst such an immense sense of loss seemed impossible and a gratitude practice seemed a little woo-woo.

Within a year of beginning, his father also died, his marriage was crumbling, and his sister was diagnosed with cancer. 

So when the pandemic hit in 2020, Steven began intense research into the accumulated data and wisdom surrounding joy and happiness. His in-depth work has now culminated in a new book, The Joy You Make: Find the Silver Linings -- Even on Your Darkest Days.

In this episode, Steven and I discuss how everything he learned helped him through his most challenging season of life, the important difference between happiness and joy, and what happened when he decided to honestly answer a stranger who asked, "How are you?"

EPISODE RESOURCES:

• Steven Petrow’s website & books
• Steven on Instagram

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Transcript

Steven: 0:00

The general consensus was around happiness is that an external event will make you happy or will make you unhappy. So you know, if you lose your job, that will make you unhappy. If you get a promotion, that will make you happy, but it's, it's externally driven. Joy is much more of an internal state that you can cultivate by being mindful of it, by learning more about its different representations. And in that way, it's something that you can live with. Happiness is like the Twinkie, you know, you're going to get that big sugar high and then you're going to crash. And joy is like the hearty whole wheat muffin. Steady, steady, steady, it will fill you up and it will satiate you.

Brenda: 0:52

You're listening to HopeStream. If you're parenting a young person who misuses substances, is in a treatment program, or finding their way to recovery, you're in the right place. This is your private space to learn from experts. And gain encouragement and support from me, Brenda Zane, your host and follow mom to a child who struggled. This podcast is just one of the resources we offer for parents. So after the episode, head over to our website at hopestreamcommunity. org. I'm so glad you're here. Take a deep breath, exhale, and know that you have found your people. And now let's get into today's show. Hi friend. Welcome to episode one of season six of the Hope Stream podcast. It is crazy to think that for the last 250 plus Thursdays, we have had this space to get together, learn, cry, laugh, ponder so many conversations and guests, and I am grateful for it all. I'm grateful that you show up for yourself and your family because when you are taking care of yourself, you're creating a positive impact on the greater world. This isn't just about you and your child or your family. It's about gaining a whole new understanding and perspective that allows you to go out and show up differently. for everybody that you interact with. So thank you for hanging out with me for the last five years. So much has changed in my world. HopeStream has bloomed into something that I could never have imagined when I plugged my brand new mic into my computer for the first time and recorded episode one back in January of 2020. I remember sitting at my dresser in my bedroom recording that episode with absolutely not a clue what I was doing. And it's just incredible to see how things have grown since then. I'm also excited to launch into a new year with some new ideas, which I will share more about in the next few weeks. So listen in for those. But for today, to start off the year, I'm sharing a conversation I had about joy. It felt like a great way to kick things off on a positive note. And I was so fortunate to have the opportunity to sit down with Steven Petro to talk about his book, The Joy You Make, Find Your Silver Linings Even on Your Darkest Days. Steven is an award winning journalist and book author who is best known for his Washington Post and New York Times essays on aging, health, and civility. His 2019 TED Talk called Three Ways to Practice Civility has been viewed nearly 2 million times and translated into 16 languages. Stephen is a much sought after public speaker and you'll likely hear him when you stream NPR or one of your favorite TV networks. He's the past president of the Association of LGBTQ Journalists and a current board member at the Virginia Center for the Creative Arts. Stephen is also the 2024 North Carolina Piedmont Laureate and lives in Hillsboro, North Carolina. You'll hear Steven and I talk about the difference between happiness and joy and why that even matters. He talks about his worst year ever and how between that horrible year of loss and grief and the impact of COVID, he realized how important it is to find and fuel joy in your life. We talk about neuroplasticity, what not to say to someone who's grieving, the importance of community and gratitude. And Stephen shares his thoughts on why we often feel like we don't deserve joy. I loved this conversation so much. Stephen is funny and incredibly thoughtful, hugely talented obviously, and I can't wait for you to hear this because I know you are going to enjoy it so much. Take a listen to Stephen Petrow, author of The joy you make Stephen so good to have you here. Thanks for joining me on halloween of all days. So happy halloween

Steven: 5:43

Same to you brenda. I left my little costume in the car. Otherwise, I would I would just be Go ahead and put it on, um, but I'm not going to tell you what it is.

Brenda: 5:53

Thanks for being here with me. I was telling you that when I heard about your book, I really wanted to have you on because first of all, the title, The Joy You Make, I was like, wait a minute, we can make joy. It's not just one of those things that is either you've got it or you don't. So that was very intriguing to me. And you know, joy can be really hard to find when. Life is super difficult and you know that more than anybody as well. But, um, so that is really, I had such an interest in learning more because I went through a period where if you would have said, you know, you could have joy right now, I would have, looked at you like a Martian with three heads, like, no. So how did this come to me? I know you're an author, you're a speaker, you write columns, and, and this really sounds like it transitioned, kind of came to be before the COVID lockdown, but then also through it. So talk a little bit about how this came to be that you would write a book about joy.

Steven: 6:59

It's a good question. And, um, so in addition to like doing those things that you said, I do, which I do, I'm a person. Good to know. You know, I'm a real life human being. You know, when you're a journalist, you know, and I write for the Washington Post, I get, um, I get many emails and, and texts and so on from people who, I would, I would like to say they disagree with what I say, but it doesn't even go that far. There's just so much vitriol and they, they forget that, um, or they don't know that there's a human being. So actually one of my practices, and this is, this is part of the I will write people back and I'll say, For instance, dear Brenda, I call you by your name, I see you, I hear you, but I don't understand you. Could you try that again?

Brenda: 7:46

I like that.

Steven: 7:47

I've come to learn that, you know, sort of the, the losses that I had in 2017, which included the death of my mom in January and the death of my dad in April. Um, my husband and I at the time, he decided we should separate right in the middle. And then my sister was diagnosed with ovarian cancer towards the end of that year. So that was um, that was a kind of a shitty year for me. Yep. That sums it up. That sums it up. But I don't. pretend to have any claim that my, my year was worse than many others. You know, there's, it's kind of surprising to me, and I'm glad it's still surprising in a way that so many people are suffering, so many people have losses. Of many different kinds and um, you know, I know we're in a specific community here, but um, It's almost a universal um condition and I kind of was at you know I was kind of at my bottom whatever that is and i'm i'm not a i'm not a woo woo person who would never actually never Would have said about me. Oh, that's stephen petcher. He's just full of joy But best you would hear he's clever. He's got a really sharp sense of humor, but I also was kind of You This, always a doubting Thomas, kind of a curmudgeon, um, that wasn't working for me. And I needed to find, um, a different path. For me, being a, being a writer is usually how I, one of the ways I do my therapy. So I did a column in the Washington Post, probably in the middle of the pandemic, and it had the, a title like, How, How to Find Joy in Difficult Times. And, um, and I talked to some research scientists and read a lot of poetry and, and, and did other kinds of interviewing. And, uh, it became clear that many people, even in the middle of the pandemic, were finding joy. And then there was a study and I got, I just got really jealous because, um, National Healthy Aging Poll. And I think it's, it's something like. Three quarters of people over 50 were feeling somewhat or very joyful during the pandemic. And I was like, how could that be? And, um, and then there were some sort of preconditions that, um, that helped to understand, helped me to understand that. And these were people who had Connections that were still ongoing, they were not isolated as, you know, as many of the rest of us. And so, um, so I came to understand that there are various components to joy and it's not just the big bang holidays. And we often think, well, joy is New Year's Eve, joy, the fourth, the birthday, the wedding, you know, these sort of big, full events. There's many different kinds of joy. And when we start to understand, you know, there's, there's religious joy, or there's serene joy. Schadenfreude is the, um, you know, the joy we take in, um, when someone, uh, messes up. Like, you know, it's part of the, you know, but there, there are different ways to see and experience joy. And so then as I started to understand that map, I said, well, actually, I am experiencing joy. different kinds of joy. I'm not putting the word on them. Um, but they all do come back to some form of connection and community and gratitude for where you are in life. And, you know, it's, it's not, it's, it can be a bumpy road. It's not, I, I would never say that like in those seven years that I like had a path that went like this and I'm doing, you know, incline for this. I can't say. Um, So this book is, is the road I took to finding more joy. There are 28 stops on it. Some, um, will appeal to many people, some won't resonate with some readers, and everyone else will also have their own contributions to it.

Brenda: 11:46

I love that. I'm imagining the research process that you went through, because I know you talked to all kinds of different people as you were writing the book. Where was there a kind of a theme or two that kept rising to the top as you're talking to people in all different kinds of roles and around the world? And I am jealous because I love talking with people. So I just thought that would have been a really fun process to go through. But what was that like? What were you learning? What were the nuggets from that?

Steven: 12:18

Um, That's why I love being a journalist, because I get to talk to just fascinating people and to learn and to ask them questions. You know, so I learned a little bit of what I just said, that there are different ways to experience it. I also, um, learned that happiness and joy are very different things. And I probably would have said at the beginning of this project, they were synonyms for each other. But as I, as I dug down, I came to realize. First of all, happiness is like the shinier cousin to joy. There's been a lot written about happiness, happiness podcasts, happiness books, 30 days to happiness, et cetera, et cetera. It's, it's, it's an industry. Um, joy has been sort of this other sibling cousin waiting there. The general consensus was around happiness is that an external event will make you happy. Or will make you unhappy. So, you know, if you lose your job, um, that will make you unhappy. If you get a promotion, that will make you happy. I know we're talking about families here. Um, so that, that all plays into it, but it's, it's externally driven. Um, joy is much more of an internal state. That you can cultivate by being mindful of it, by learning more about its different representations. And in that way, it's something that you can live with, um, and, and continue to grow with one of the metaphors that I use, which. I think I was using this, um, I was speaking to someone in, in the UK and I was like, I don't know if this is going to work for you people, but, um, happiness is like the Twinkie, you know, you're going to get that big sugar high and then you're going to crash. And joy is like the hearty whole wheat muffin. Steady, steady, steady, it will fill you up and it will satiate you. So that was um, that was kind of um, fascinating to me, important, and you know, some of the examples I've used are, if I eat a brownie, maybe I'm happy. If I make a pan of brownies and share them with friends, I will feel joyful. That notion of we, that notion of you and me, and um, well I'm not um, I'm not being like strictly political, you know, in this work, you know, I think that the early part, especially of, um, Kamala Harris's campaign when it was focusing on joy was this kind of embracing of the we. And I think, um, we're tired. We're in an epidemic of loneliness. We're polarized. It's a scary time. So, you know, the idea of coming together and finding solace and then finding joy in that is, is a lifeline.

Brenda: 14:59

Yeah. And the, I'm so glad you brought that up about happiness versus joy, because I think in the season of life that. You know, anybody listening here is in, it is not feeling particularly happy. Right. And so what I think when you talked about people in during the pandemic, finding joy, what that says to me is that we're going back to the basics. To the little things, not looking for those big shiny object kind of happiness factors, but appreciating a moment, a sound, a smell, a taste, like those little things that can bring us joy. And the, the brownie example, that's so perfect versus, um, you know, making them with somebody and sharing them versus just eating one. That's a perfect, um, you know, something that I can actually see in my head because I, as I think about what I went through, what the families are going through her listening, they're like, yeah, but how do I find joy when I could be losing somebody who I love? And I know you went through that. You mentioned briefly that both of your parents passed away within the same year. And so, you know, this, this is, this is not something that's just unique to the parents here. How Do you do that? Because , it's, it is heavy and it's a daily weight. Right? That's on you that you wake up in the morning. Oh, it's still scary. And I go to bed at night. Oh, now it's even scarier. So I would love to hear any thoughts that you have that you could share, um, with our listeners about what that's like. It's so, so hard.

Steven: 16:48

So here, Brenda, I want to, I want to say that I'm going to speak from my personal experience because everyone has their own experience also, and, um, you know, and to have, you know, to have two parents die. Yes, that was, that was sad. The fact that they were close in time was challenging, but, um, That is part of the life order, if you're lucky. Parents are older. Children generally survive their parents. Um, So I mentioned that in that same year, my sister was diagnosed with, with ovarian cancer. And, um, she died from it last year. And, um, for many reasons, that was a much more challenging and painful loss. Part of it being, she was my baby sister, so it was outside of the order. And you know, I know that when we're talking about, um, you know, parents who have lost a child, that is outside of the order of nature as we understand it. So I want to be very, um, careful talking about that, um, very empathetic. That experiences that I've had will not directly map. On to others and I think the last thing I would want someone to say to me, especially when I was, was, you know, in the darkness. Go find yourself some joy, Stephen. What's the matter with you? Like, what's the matter with you? You know, and so I'm putting all of that aside. And, you know, so what I want to, you know, say is that sometimes the philosophers and sages are right. And, um, Thomas Aquinas who is, um, from the 13th century said, Man cannot live without joy. And I read that kind of early on and I thought, Well, what does that mean? And how do I apply that to my life? And in a way it became My understanding became like, you have air, you have water, you have food. Then you have joy, which is really, it's the spiritual sustenance that, um, that carries us. And, um, I fell into sort of my first joy experiment completely by serendipity. I, um, I started taking photographs with my little iPhone and posting them. And initially a lot of people liked them, you know, pretty sunrises and pretty flowers and that sort of thing. And I was getting my dopamine in and I was like, Oh, this is great. And I was tagging each of them with joy, joyful, beauty is everywhere. And then people started posting their own photographs using the same tags. And I felt that now, beyond just sort of the dopamine of a click, I was feeling like there was a connection happening between. We became a community. You're going to hear me talk again and again about a community, um, however you constitute that. And some of these were with people I knew, some of them with people I didn't know at all. But it was very powerful in those days of the COVID darkness to be finding bridges. With other people that we could travel back and forth. Um, and that kind of was like, that kind of got me going. And that was like a little joy hit, but a joy hit that I was doing daily. And then I read about the importance of gratitude journals. Researchers say if you do it for 21 days, going to bed at night and just filling out, you know, a piece of paper, I have a little booklet that I use, you will gradually in that time shift, um, how you're feeling. We all have, how much it shifts, you know, is up for debate, is up for circumstances, but It turned out to be true, and it turned out to be true enough for me to continue to be doing it seven years later. Wow. You know, and I started, and I remember like, I started soon after my mom died, and I remember thinking, I don't have anything to be grateful for, I'm gonna fail at this. Always a little bit judgmental. And, and so I started doing it, and I expected I had to be grateful for world peace, or you know, climate change being, you know, fixed. None of it was like that. Yeah, it was like, I'm grateful that I went for a walk with so and so or that I, I, you know, I helped a neighbor do this or that chocolate ice cream was delicious today, you know, but they were, they were ways to say, there's a, there's a little bit of life, there's a little bit of hope in this day and to go to sleep thinking more about that, feeling more about that than the frustrations, the fear, the fright. And that does begin to sort of, um, change you in, in positive ways. And there's a whole school of positive psychology that, that studies this. Um, so, you know, in, you know, in the book I talk about, you know, some are small, some are bigger. But, um, I like the table of contents. Um, so, the joy of gratitude. But then I talk also about the joy of authenticity.

Brenda: 22:01

Yeah.

Steven: 22:04

I don't know if, um, you or those in, in this community have experienced this, but so many of us put on armor, makeup, ways to protect ourselves, ways to shield ourselves, which is usually like our heart, our feelings. And um, and I, I saw that by being able to take off that armor, I was, um, it was painful the people could actually. see me. They could see the pain. They could see some of the joy, but I could be seen. And then that allowed for others to do the same. And then you're in this reciprocal relationship. And, you know, we live in a culture that just believes in, you know, we have to be stoic, you know, we have to control our emotions. And if we're talking about the loss of, you know, of a child of whatever age, nobody's really okay, you know, and has an aside. Um, Yeah, I've written a lot about manners and etiquette. You know, when somebody's gone through a loss, please don't say, how are you? Like, how the f do you think I am? Um, and kind of went, I kind of went off with some friends about that. So we compromised. This is not a bad compromise. How are you doing today?

Brenda: 23:27

I like that.

Steven: 23:28

That allows me, I don't have to say fine. And today is different than yesterday and today is different. Hey

Brenda: 23:42

there, are you feeling stuck in a cycle of drama and arguments with your child, worried, sick about their substance use? I have been there and I want you to know there's hope. This podcast is just one piece of the curated and trustworthy resources and solutions we offer for parents. We recognize you need emotional support and a solid plan for moving forward, making positive change in your family. So in addition to connecting with other parents and feeling like you're part of something bigger, we also teach you practical skills and strategies to dial down the drama and diffuse those heated moments. We step you through the evidence based craft approach, you. A game changer that can help you invite your child to accept help without resorting to tough love or waiting for rock bottom. We have so much more than the podcast waiting for you. Head over to hope stream community. org to tap into all our resources and become part of the hope stream family in our private online community. Remember you are not alone in this. We're doing it together. Now let's get back to the conversation. I've even asked people, how are you in this moment? Yeah. Right. Because I think you're right. It is so unfair to ask, Oh, how are you doing? Um, obviously you're not going to be doing well. And I, I love the grad. I'm so glad that you mentioned that about gratitude journal because I talk about that a lot. We have a practice in our online community for parents where every single Sunday we have, it's called so grateful Sunday and we talk about what we're grateful for. And at first I think people roll their eyes and they're like, okay, that's a little woo woo. Like, Oh brother, that's, you know, whatever you go do your fun little gratitude thing. And, and I know that there is science behind it. So thank you for reconfirming that that is a practice that. does actually make a difference. Um, I always say, you know, you could try it. And if it doesn't do anything, it hasn't done you any harm, like there's no harm in practicing that for a month or whatever. Um, and the authenticity that you talked about is so true. And I think when If you can't allow yourself, I know a lot of us spend a lot of energy trying to hold it together all day long, right? If something's really difficult is going on and you do bump into your neighbor at the store and they're like, Oh, Hey, how's it going? And you try so hard to hold it together when really all you want to do is just cry. like ugly cry. But if we do sometimes lower that mask and let people see really what's going on, like you said, it gives them permission to also feel and connect with us on that really real level. And sometimes that's when the most beautiful relationships happen, right. Cause you learn, Oh my gosh, that person's also going through something really hard.

Steven: 26:56

So I, how, I, I want to tell you a story, and it's so illustrative of this point. So two months after Julie died, which was not this past summer, but the summer before, I was at the dentist. And I didn't really know the dental hygienist very well, but I had been there several times. And she said, How are you? Various implements in my mouth. And I'm fine. I'm good. And, um, and then when she had her hands out of my mouth, I said, You know what? I want to, I want to, answer that again. And I told her I was grieving. I told her that Julia died about two months before that she had had ovarian cancer. I opened up, she's pretty much a stranger. And she said to me, you know, when I was a teenager, my mother died from ovarian cancer. Old sister. And, um, and she told me her story. And Brenda, you know, for such losses, it was such a beautiful, cool. And, um, that's what, that's what can happen when we, when we allow ourselves to do that. And I guess I use myself a little bit as a guinea pig, so I was saying at that time, okay, I need to practice what I'm trying to preach here and see what happens. And, um, it could go nowhere, and again, you're not losing anything if it goes nowhere.

Brenda: 28:25

Exactly. I wonder if you have experienced this, where sometimes we're resistant to joy, like, I just don't want to feel joy. Joy right now, you know, like we're kind of like a six year old like I'm not gonna do it Do you have you experienced that and why do we do that? Sometimes? We just want to wallow in it

Steven: 28:50

Well, also, how about I don't deserve joy.

Brenda: 28:53

Mm hmm. Oh, yes.

Steven: 28:56

Yes, you know and Both of those have have resonated for me and for others and I see you nodding and understand, you know, you know and like You know, and how can you be talking about joy when someone is terribly ill or someone is dying or someone has died? How dare you? Um, well, first of all, nobody should be judging anyone else. Problem is we often judge ourselves. Nobody was saying to me, you know, you don't deserve joy. I was saying that to me.

Brenda: 29:33

Right. Right.

Steven: 29:35

And, um, Julie was a very good role model in that she was able to talk, she talked to our whole family about these issues and she sent us off as missionaries to, to do more talking about these things. And um, and she helped us to experience various forms of joy, you know, during her five years of illness. And, um, Uh, from everything from, you know, making recipes that our mother used to cook,

Brenda: 30:04

going

Steven: 30:05

back in memories. Um, I usually wear this ring that she made for me, um, before, and she gave it to me before she died. It has five sapphires in it that had been earrings of hers and she wanted me to have that. Uh, you know, so, um, so every time I, I look at that, I, I think of her and often we can go to memories to find, to find her. Um, there's, there's a chapter in the book called The Joy of Memory, and Jeff Warren, who is a, um, great meditation teacher in Canada, um, does a meditation for us. It's a written meditation there. Um, so, I think we have to try to accept that we do deserve joy, um, even in these darkest times and that it's almost that necessary part of life. what we need to metabolize to get from this day to the next day and to care about and take care of others that need that as well as take care of ourselves.

Brenda: 31:08

Right. And I was just thinking, as I was preparing for this, I was thinking, well, what's the alternative, right? Like we can, like, what's the alternative of not finding joy? You're, you're going to, I believe, get sick, you know, and I know you write about the connection between joy and health and, um, um, We're all fans of Dr. Gabor Maté, who I'm sure you know, and he talks a lot about that connection of people who really are really stuck in the negative and stuck in the sadness and the pain and not allowing any joy in. It really impacts our health so much and I got to believe that's when we think about, well, this sounds like some work, right? I kind of do a little bit of work to find joy. What's the alternative? What, what, what are your thoughts on that?

Steven: 32:01

Well, it does take a little bit of work, but it doesn't have to cost you any money.

Brenda: 32:07

Yeah.

Steven: 32:10

You don't have to go to a retreat center. You certainly don't have to buy anything.

Brenda: 32:14

You

Steven: 32:14

know, it's really about small shifts in mindset that allow you to become a little bit more open, um, to a head of joy, to a, you know, to a nugget of joy. And then, and then, and then to build on that. And it's a little bit of a leap of faith. And I, I, I did find it to be a leap of faith because I honestly didn't, you know, I didn't think the gratitude journal was going to help me, you know, and we all think we're so special and that's. We're all not so special if we have many common attributes and traits, um, but anything that has value does take some kind of, it could, it might just be the intention. I don't, it's not, it's not as though you have to, you know, you really have to do something two hours a day. You know, if you want to burn this number of calories or something specifically health but you do need to do something that's quantifiable, um. This is not that way. It's really about seeing the world and seeing yourself in the world in a little bit of a different place day by day.

Brenda: 33:27

Yeah. And I'm, I'm glad you mentioned the guilt before because that's a big one when I know for parents and I felt this, which was, Everybody around me knows that my child is struggling and could potentially, like, any day could be the last day. So who is she to go off and be joyful or to be, you know, dancing or going to a concert or whatever it is. Um, so there's that weird tug of like, I know I need this for my health, for my sanity, for my well being, and at the same time, I have to hold this heaviness, and you do have to hold them both at the same time. But I think there is a fear of being judged for experiencing joy when life is difficult. Like, how dare you, you know, do that? This person in your life is really hurting, so thanks for mentioning that.

Steven: 34:25

There's this notion that it's this fixed pie and that what we have, we only can give to one person.

Brenda: 34:32

Right.

Steven: 34:33

Our capacity to love and to give and to experience joy, it's really immeasurable.

Brenda: 34:39

Yeah.

Steven: 34:40

And it expands, um, when called upon.

Brenda: 34:45

Yeah.

Steven: 34:46

I'll tell you this, this little anecdote. So, so I don't have children and I have four nieces and nephews, but I've had a number of dogs and. I'm very attached to the dogs, and I remember after my first Cocker Spaniel died, she'd been with me for 15 years, and she was quite a character. I thought, well, I'll never be able to experience love for a dog again. I'm done. Through circumstances, I wound up with another dog. The dog was completely different, and I came to love that second dog in a completely different way inside. And it shocked me, you know, to realize I had that capacity. And it was unique to each of these four legged, um, we have that capacity and we have to trust ourselves. Um, and then going back to the science about neuroplasticity, which I'm not going to go into a lot, but It's not as though we're born joyful or not joyful. We can change. We can grow. Our minds and our hearts do that. And again, that is not just me saying woo woo.

Brenda: 35:57

Yeah. It's, uh, it's so true. The neuroplasticity is an interesting one that we don't have time to go into today, but it is, it's just good to know that we can rewire. And I'm so glad. We had a chance to talk about joy and happiness because I think a lot of times we sit and say, I just want to be happy. I just want to be happy again. And maybe we can start to shift that to, I want to feel joy. Maybe right now isn't the time when I am going to feel happy, but I can still feel joy. Show us the book. I want to make sure and get that. I just want people to see it and people want people to get it, study it. Yes, the joy you make it's so important and thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate the time so much.

Steven: 36:42

Thank you, Brenda. My pleasure. My joy.

Brenda: 36:45

Okay, my friend. If you want the transcript or show notes and resources from this episode, just go to hopestreamcommunity. org and click on podcast. That'll take you to all things podcast related, including the full library. a search feature if you're looking for something specific, and also playlists where we have grouped together episodes on things like craft, recovery stories, solo episodes, siblings. We even have a start here playlist if you're new. Those are super helpful, so be sure to check them out. I also want to let you know about a free ebook you can download if you're feeling anxious and confused about how to approach your child's substance misuse. The book is called Worried Sick. A compassionate guide for parents of teens and young adults misusing drugs and alcohol and it'll introduce you to ways that you can rebuild connection and relationship with your child versus distance and let them hit rock bottom. It is a game changer. It's totally free. Just go to hopestreamcommunity. org forward slash worried. To download that. You are amazing. You are such a rock star, a super elite level parent. It's truly an honor to be here with you. And please know you are not doing this alone. You've got this tribe and you will be okay. You'll make it through this season and when you do you are going to be stronger and more resilient than you ever thought possible. I'm sending all my love and light and I'll meet you right back here next week.