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There Are No Bad Parts Of Us: Understanding Internal Family Systems (IFS) for Addiction, with Cece Sykes

• Brenda Zane, Cece Sykes • Season 5 • Episode 234

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ABOUT THE EPISODE:

Everyone knows the experience of internal dialogue and conflict about who we are and how we will respond to the world around us. It can feel as if there are parts of us at war with each other. For kids using substances, these parts can become extremely polarized – for instance, part of them wants nothing more than to use, and another genuinely desires self-control. 

My guest today says that while their inner parts are engaged in this debate about use, it's hard for them to see the underlying cause of the substance use or addictive behavior, whether that be loneliness, anxiety, or shame.  

Cece Sykes saw her first client almost 45 years ago, and since then has been doing incredible work with young people suffering from addiction and trauma. Cece is one of the first practitioners of Internal Family Systems (IFS), a framework for understanding the roles each of these parts are playing, discovering what role they play in our coping, and gaining a deeper understanding of our kids' needs and motivations.

Interestingly, understanding IFS can change our relationship with ourselves as well. We all have these parts, and the self-examination that this framework provides can help us move beyond the unhealthy dynamics that often develop between parents and kids using substances. In this episode, Cece explains how that works, and how we can help our kids recoginze all the parts of them, without shame, and with more self-compassion.

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Cece:

I might just say, uh, forgive ourselves as parents, that we aren't going to be perfect, and we are going to make mistakes, and parts of us will take over from time to time, but to be accountable, not guilty, but accountable, and to speak for our, and acknowledge our complexity, and welcome our complexity, and forgive ourselves for being complex in anger and frustration and impatience and despair.

Brenda:

You're listening to HopeStream. If you're parenting a young person who misuses substances, is in a treatment program, or finding their way to recovery, you're in the right place. This is your private space to learn from experts and gain encouragement and support from me, Brenda Zane, your host and follow mom to a child who struggled. This podcast is just one of the resources we offer for parents. So after the episode head over to our website at hopestreamcommunity. org. I'm so glad you're here Take a deep breath exhale and know that you have found your people and now let's get into today's show Hi friend, so so glad to meet up here today and spend a little time with you I'm so looking forward to having you here today's conversation because it will introduce you to or maybe Re familiarize you with A therapeutic approach that's well known for being effective for helping people heal from addictive processes. You've probably heard of approaches like DBT and CBT, but you may be a little less familiar with an approach called IFS, which stands for internal family systems. And I will admit when I first heard about IFS, I assumed it was related to a traditional family structure. But as I learned more, I realized it is not family therapy at all. Dr. Richard Schwartz, a psychotherapist, created this very interesting and effective therapeutic modality where rather than viewing addiction as a pathology, it's proposed that addiction reflects the behavior of polarized, polarized, Protective Parts, Struggling to Manage Underlying Emotional Pain. IFS is premised on the idea that every person has different parts within them, each with their own unique characteristics and functions, separate from one's true or core self. Emotional healing and greater well being can be experienced by bringing these various parts into harmony with each other, integrating them, if you will, in a process that many have found transformative. So clearly you can see why I was intrigued and I got connected with a therapist and expert in IFS, Cease Sykes. Cease saw her first client, a 13 year old sexually abused runaway foster child at a community based family services agency in 1978. Initially trained as a structural strategic family therapist, Cease spent the next 12 years working in Chicago with families affected by abuse, neglect, and addiction. During that time, Cease provided workshops and training on family therapy and trauma treatment at the Institute for Juvenile Research, the Department of Children and Family Services, the Family Institute at Northwestern, and many other mental health agencies. She co authored a chapter on family treatment with incest impacted families in the late 1980s. She's then expanded her clinical focus to include the Internal Family Systems model, IFS, in the late 1990s. She's a senior trainer for the Internal Family Systems Institute and beginning in 2004, led Level 1, 2, and 3 IFS training programs across the country and internationally. Cees contributed a chapter on IFS approaches to treating addictive processes titled, An IFS Lens on Addiction, Compassion for Extreme Parts, in the 2016 book on Innovations and Elaborations in Internal Family Systems Therapy. In 2023, Internal Family Systems for Addictions was published, a best selling manual that was co authored by CEASE, IFS author Martha Sweeney, and Richard Schwartz, the founder of IFS, on how to use this model to understand and treat addictive processes. Another component of CEASE's work is the intersection of psychotherapy with spirituality. She's worked with a wide range of spiritual practices, from Zen communities to groups with traditional religious beliefs, and also 12 step followers on how to fold their vision of the inner spirit into the practice of psychotherapy. I am so grateful to have had this time with Cease because as she spoke, so many things made sense to me and I just thought if I had had this knowledge earlier in our family's I would have been able to have so much more compassion for my son when he was struggling. I might recommend you have a notebook or something to jot down some of the gems Cees brings in this conversation, which I won't delay another second. Let's jump in with therapist, consultant, educator, and author, Cees. I'm so thrilled to have you here today on HopeStream. I've never covered the topic of IFS, internal family systems, and so I'm really looking forward to this because I know I have a lot to learn and you are definitely an expert in this. So welcome to HopeStream and thanks for the time.

Cece:

Oh, it's really good to be here. Thanks for having me, Brenda.

Brenda:

Because this is a topic that is, it's potentially going to be very new to a lot of the folks listening. Will you give us a minute? Just the fundamentals the fundamental principles of IFS so that we kind of have a baseline as we go through the conversation for what it is that we're talking about.

Cece:

Yeah. Perfect. Well, thanks again for having me. Internal family systems was developed about 40 years ago by a family therapist. So it's not about family therapy, although it sounds like it is, uh, his name is Richard Schwartz. He's in, he originated in Chicago, which is where I'm coming in from. And, uh, he was a. He was a professor of family therapy and what was happening is he was doing a lot of work with, uh, disordered eating, another type of addictive process that so many families go through in some kind of way. And he was doing this, the typical family therapy stuff that you're supposed to do, help the parents join and get up clear communication between the parents and reorganize the power and so forth. But, uh, nobody felt any better. And, uh, younger women were still struggling with food, so we began to sort of work with the different parts of them regarding their food, sort of using the same ideas. So, we all know what it's like. We all have an inner conversation in our head. I ask people sometimes, What's the first thing you say to yourself when you wake up in the morning, right? So, we have this sort of inner dialogues. We have sensations, physical sensations of dread or anxiety. or elation, you know and he began to use these different sort of mental states and mental conversations and physical states and kind of just, the clients just called him the part of me. So the part of me that wanted to restrict and another part of me that hated that I did it, then another part that like wanted to binge for relief, then the other part that was trying to really care, take my parents and hide things from them, those kinds of parts, he began to have them interact with that. and actually found that beautiful things happened in those inner reactions. We know now it's more common to talk about mindfulness or focusing internally and spiritual traditions of any kind use pair rules, prayer and reflection, but not so much the psychological world. So this was really different to in the middle of a therapy session, listening to what's happened this week and what's happening in the family and so forth. He began to say, well, then let's also do something with these different parts of you in a new way. So, and again, and what often happens with anyone with addictive processes, uh, in particular is we get polarized, a part that wants to do it and a part that wants to control it. But underneath it, and everyone can relate to that, is our vulnerability. So if I'm in a busy debate about whether I should use or not use, uh, I never get to the feeling underneath it, which is loneliness or pain or whatever. So this model learned that you have to work with what's here in the moment. The parts that help us function in the moment, which is all our high functioning manager parts that help us do right, go to school, go to work, take care of business, take care of our families. And then the parts that help us soothe, relax, uh, find some sweetness, find some novelty in life. But that when any of that becomes extreme in a child or an adult, uh, we don't have access to our vulnerability. That's so busy. We can't get on their knees to say, what am I feeling inside of my heart? It's almost like we don't know anymore. So this model helps us work with all three sets of parts. It divides the inner world into three parts, the parts that take care of things, the parts that soothe things, and the parts underneath that hold our vulnerability, our sensitivity, and then also old memories of difficult times.

Brenda:

Mm. So let me just play this back to make sure I am understanding. Right. I

Cece:

hope it wasn't too long. I hope it was.

Brenda:

No. No. So good. Good. So it sounds like. Where, where, uh, Richard Schwartz was working with patients and talking about the external family. So mom, dad, brother, sister, whoever. When he was actually, what he was hearing from them was, Oh no, there's one of those inside of me. Like there's, there's this little family inside of me that we're having these conversations. Did I get that right?

Cece:

You got it. And he called it a family. It doesn't always feel like parental figures and children exactly, but a little bit. It can a little bit. Our managers are like little parents or little parentified children that try to do right. And our sort of firefighters or soothers are a little bit like teenagers. Like, don't bother me. Don't tell me what to do. And our exiles are a little bit, our children, they hold our sensitivity, our innocence, but also the parts that hold old emotional pain. They get sort of it gets sort of repressed and pushed down into that, sort of, uh, underlying place. So in a sense it's a little bit like a family, but but of course a little more complex.

Brenda:

Right and and potentially, especially if somebody is struggling with an addiction It's probably a fairly dysfunctional family at the time that they would come to someone like you or start working with a therapist around this. Does everybody have the same set of parts or is it kind of unique to each person based on your childhood and based on your culture maybe or where you live? Or does everybody kind of show up with the same cast of characters and then they all kind of take a different role in their life? What does that look like?

Cece:

You know, that is such a good question, Brenda. You know, it's sort of that only therapists get away with it. Both are right. In a sense, we all have a unique story. Every family is unique. You know, where they come from, you know, all the, the cultural pieces of their family, their family story, their family history. Yet at the same time, there's some similarities across all of us. So, uh, this model wasn't just like an idea put upon the human experience, it was sort of emerged from talking with clients with various kinds of addictive processes, initially just food and eating disorders, but gradually I've been working with all kinds of people with all, you know, whether it's substances, whether it's porn, whether it's just that the chronic, intense relationship that's very painful, that addiction to a person. So, so often that happens with teenagers, right, becoming obsessed with their girlfriend, boyfriend, their partner. So, uh, but we say that every, this whole array of emotions of parts is divided into three basic categories and many other psychodynamic models talk about, even Freud, id, ego, superego, have sort of thought about the personality in sort of three parts. And that is, I sort of, we called the managers because they manage our lives. Those are the parts we want our neighbors and our co workers to see. We're good, we're kind, we're helpful, we're smart, we do our job, we take care of things. Our firefighters, which are the natural work life balance of shifting gears. We all You know, relax, watch TV, scroll your phones, take a walk, walk the dog, all the different ways that we relax in life, but that becomes distorted into intense need for soothing and checking out if the third category parts is carrying some burdens. So, we have naturally all sensitivity, sensuousness, warmth, openness as children. I'm a grandma now, so I get to relive the, uh, the innocence of, of children and the enjoyment of, of little babies and toddlers and, and they're growing up so fast. Sounds amazing. Oh, yeah, I love all that. And, but we remember the innocence, so if you're lucky enough to be born in a family where things are relatively stable, you have all this innocence and openness and carefree and helpfulness. Yeah. All because we are so open, we also absorb whatever's in the field. So for growing up in a family where there's, uh, mental illness, where one of the parents is suffering with an addictive process of their own, we feel like we have to take care of them or we feel not seen, uh, or we feel isolated. So those feelings, we begin to develop a sort of sense of an identity of am I enough? I can't, you know, I can't fix that. So what's wrong with me? So, those are the things our exiles tend to hold, but no one can go to school in the morning feeling isolated, alone, less than. We have to press that. And so we, we learn very young, our children do, learn how to survive if we've had a less than nurturing environment. And we develop protectors, our managers. They don't just operate, they protect us and become addicted to get being good in school or addicted to being seen or caretaking and being kind to others or addicted to fighting substances, stealing bears, smoking your parents cigarettes, finishing your parents drinks, uh, you know, running away. Those kinds of parts, we get compulsive. So the normal, we all carry the desire to take care of business, soothe and relax. And be sensitive and open to the world, but that all becomes extreme in an extreme environment. Does that make some sense?

Brenda:

It does. It does. So it sounds like, you know, just based on what's going on, one is going to be kind of heightened or stronger, become, like you said, more extreme than the other. as a way of coping, as a way of taking care of us, as a way of dealing with whatever's going on.

Cece:

The way of taking care of us is such a good way to put it, because all these parts are well intentioned. Even if there's bad behavior, it's high risk behavior. Using drugs is high risk behavior for kids. You know, even if it's high risk, the intention is to soothe them.

Brenda:

Right. So maybe talk about that a little bit, because I think that's super confusing for parents is to wrap our heads around this idea that that this kind of makes sense that my child would be doing this because often we don't know what it is that that Is it the firefighter? You said that that takes over in this, like, we don't know potentially what that firefighter is, is protecting or fighting. And so yes, it's really confusing. So maybe talk about that a little bit, how we can start to wrap our heads around the fact that this is, our kids are doing this. For a reason and that it should make sense,

Cece:

you know, that is so hard to wrap our heads around And I'm so glad you're asking that the name that firefighter sounds a little ridiculous for psychological term. I'll just acknowledge I like it I actually

Brenda:

Normal layperson couldn't think about

Cece:

It's user friendly but the idea is that they put out their heroic, they will do whatever is necessary, rush into a high risk situation in order to put out the flames of shame,

Brenda:

right?

Cece:

So we all know that feeling that, that almost the cold and hot of shame of loneliness of not being seen of not enough. So firefighters know how to douse those flames and they'll do whatever they have to do in the moment. Right. Depending upon the depth or the intensity of the feelings, or the chronicity of it, how long it's going on. Some kids have occasional moments where things are difficult, and some, for some families, it's quite chronic. There's ongoing neglect, ongoing pain. For most kids, it's here and there. No parent is perfect. No child is perfect. No one is possible. So, you know, we all grow up with a certain amount of, of, uh, attachments, if you will. You know, losses and misunderstandings and pains and things we've had to deal with. So firefighters help us out. So maybe we watch TV, maybe we, if, you know, you're an adult, you drink wine, you have a beer, you watch sports, you go out, you do things with friends, you socialize you do things in your garden, whatever. But when the pain is too much, we don't, we need more than a break. We almost need to be checked out. So, there's that time, that certain hours of time where you don't feel at all. It's anything that numbs our feelings, uh, and so that's the intention. So, even though it is so hard to see an angry, defensive, you know, 15 year old, to see that underneath that they don't feel good enough, uh, they feel shamed. And of course, there's so many reasons for that. It's not just. It can be related to parental things, but so often it is also related to the external world that they're living in, in school and on teams and their community and their environment. So, it's sort of like a, I like to say to parents, you know, you're seeing one part of your child, your child's showing you one part, or a couple parts, they're showing you your firefighters. They're angry, they're dismissive, they're, and they're defending what they need to do. And that's the part they see, and that's the part you see, and that's the part they want to show you, because it's hard for them to be vulnerable with themselves, and so therefore it's hard for them to show it to anyone else, even you. They're so afraid of, of, of being overwhelmed by shame, being overwhelmed by worthlessness. So those in the anger and the controlling and the pushback helps them not feel out of, so out of control or helpless. Does that make sense?

Brenda:

It does. And I think that's a great, almost visual to remember that when you have that really angry defiant teen in your face, right, to kind of think about, okay, this is the part of them that I'm seeing. Cause that was one of my questions I wanted to ask you is how does understanding IFS help Help us help our kids. Right? So we might have this understanding, but if we, until we could maybe get them in with a therapist or get them to start understanding this, if they're unaware that that there are these different parts of them, right? Because it's all jumbled up in their mind. Yeah. For us to be able to at least Have this concept of, Oh, this is what I'm, this is the part I'm seeing right now. The other ones are in there, but they're a little dormant right now. Is that, is that a way that we could help our kids through this knowledge? I'm trying to sort of see how we could extract this into something that would be helpful for us as we're working toward getting them help.

Cece:

Well, you know, it's such a good question. Like, what do we do in the moment, right? So one of the things is just to think about ourselves as the parent is having parts. So, when our child is in our face, or arms crossed, doesn't want to open their bedroom door, or arms crossed walking away, what parts of us come up? So, one of the things to look at is, do we feel rejected? Even though we know better, I'm the adult, do we actually internally, do we feel rejected, or do we feel angry, or do we feel, uh, very frightened, or do we go into our heads, uh, do we? Uh, push back. Do we walk away and get called back? What parts come up in us? What manager parts try to do right? Another key manager part for parents is caretaker. So of course, it's our job to take care of our kids. As adolescents, they're in the, we're in the in between place of giving them some freedom and some power and holding on to some. And it's, it's not an exact science, of course. We have manager parts. We have caretaker, but those parts can also be very critical. Uh, of ourselves. So do we beat ourselves up that our child is having problems? Do we say we're a terrible parent? What did I miss? What have I done wrong? So we're in a constant place where we're beating ourselves up. We also may find that we need to soothe. So what is a parent doing to soothe themselves or to get away? And we're also sort of adding to our own reservoir of unworthiness, right?

Brenda:

Yeah.

Cece:

So one thing to notice is that we have parts and there's no shame in having parts. There's no shame. Or did your kids make you nervous? Did you feel scared when they were that angry? You feel scared about what they're going to do at night. Do you feel scared when they're not, when they're late? Of course. So to just welcome that level of vulnerability and the fact that we do protect ourselves, we do get angry with our kids. We do yell at our kids. We do say the wrong thing. Of course we do. Nobody's perfect. It's impossible. It's the, it's the nature of humanity is that we are imperfect. And and, and that's certainly the nature of being a parent. I'm a parent. I have two kids. Two daughters, they're in their 30s now, but I was thinking so much about those teenage years when I was getting ready to be on this panel cast, you know, how freaking relieved I was when they turned 21. Yeah. Thank God, we're past a certain point. Right. You know, and they went through various issues, one of them with substances, one of them with food issues, one of them with some anger issues, there was problems in my marriage, there was a lot going on.

Brenda:

Yeah.

Cece:

So, I want, I don't come at this from some sense that there's this perfect way and that we're all going to do it perfectly, and I can think of, you know, 94 things I would do differently, right?

Brenda:

Yeah.

Cece:

But at the same time, when we, when we can just notice, so I might say to a parent, I Just notice what comes up when you, when your child is this way and notice those parts and take care of them and say, well, of course I feel angry. Of course, I feel scared. If you have it in you to walk away until you're more settled. What I want to say is that the firefighters of our kids. The firefighters of our partners too, spouses, husbands, wives, whoever, firefighters aren't really interested in talking to managers. They, you know, so they don't want to have that conversation because they know what they're going to hear. There's something wrong with you. You've got to stop this. It's high risk. You're going to hurt yourself. What's going to happen to you? You're a bad person. You know better. It's a crime. It's a law. You know, they know what they're going to hear and none of that changes a firefighter. Why? Why don't they respond to reasonable complaints? Because they have a purpose. And their purpose is to protect that child's vulnerability. They're gonna do it if that child is vulnerable. So what are the, what happens? The firefighters reject that? Managers or they placate. Mm-Hmm.. Okay. Yeah. No, you're right. Mm-Hmm.. Mm-Hmm.. Mm-Hmm. lie cheat and p cake, you know, and get away with it for a few days. So they'll placate, but they do, we get sustained change when managers can try to convince firefighters to change. No. Which is unfortunate when, but you know who is listening? The child's exile. The child can hear that. The parent is feeling disgusted, contemptuous. fearful, and their little exiles, their own little three and four year olds inside, are getting burdened, are feeling unloved. Despite the fact that it doesn't seem like, you know, they're being so aggressive, how could they feel unloved? But that's in fact exactly what's happening. Because the parents managers, it's like they're talking to a four year old and screaming in that four year old's face. How would a four year old react to being screamed at and told they're bad? That is, that 4 year old is still in that child listening. Although they're having their firefighter respond, You don't get me, you don't understand me. But that becomes polarized. We all have our moments like that. It becomes polarized if the only thing we do with our kids is try to tell them what to do. Then we are, in essence, activating their firefighters. We're activating a power strip. So, what can we do? We can help our managers step back on what we would say in IFS. It's come from that place of calm, of regulation, and the term we use, and I'm trying to think of a more normal term, we say speak for our parts, but just to say, may I have a conversation with you? Could we talk about this issue? Are you available for that? And then when that time comes, say, this is what I might always say, love first. This is what's, you're doing so well, and this is why I love you, and this is what's going well. Feeling second, I'm scared for you. I'm worried about what's happening. I'm noticing you're not humping up. Third, and request third. This is my request for you. My request is that you talk to me about the, what's the drinking that I know is going on. My request is that we have a conversation. You might not even know what you're doing, but I know that there's something going on with you. Yeah. I didn't want to just say that. So those kinds of conversations don't necessarily cause change in the first conversation. But what I say to parents is never give up. Our goal is to speak in that way for our concerns. We don't have to abandon our concerns. We don't have to pretend we're not concerned, we don't have to pretend this is fine. I never say, there's never an excuse, we don't have to excuse our kids. It's not, that's not going to benefit them. But I always say never an excuse, but always a reason.

Brenda:

Hi, I'm taking a quick break to let you know some exciting news. There are now two private online communities for supporting you through this experience with your child or children. The Stream Community for those who identify as moms, and The Woods for guys who identify as dads. Of course, this includes step parents and anyone who is caring for a young person who struggles with substance use and mental health. The Stream and the Woods exist completely outside of all social media, so you never have to worry about confidentiality. And they're also ad free. So when you're there, you'll be able to focus on learning the latest evidence based approaches to helping people change their relationship with drugs and alcohol. In both communities, we have a positive focus without triggering content or conversations, and we help you learn to be an active participant in helping your child move towards healthier choices. You'll also experience the relief of just being able to be real, connect with other parents who know fully what you're going through, and have battle tested mentors alongside. You can check out both The Stream and The Woods for free before committing, so there's no risk. Go to hope stream community dot org to get all the details and become a member. Okay, let's get back to the show I wanted to go back to you mentioned shame Yeah And we all know that shame plays such a huge part in our kids and in their struggles even though like you said we don't see it what we see is the anger and the defiance and the F you and the you know finger and the And I'm going to ask you to talk a little bit about how this works to maybe work against that shame a little bit, because to me, this feels like, as you start to understand it, it feels very compassionate and respectful and like, well, of course you would do this. Could you talk a little bit about how. This can help with the shame that our kids are feeling and how for us to understand this, we can help with that as well. Does that make sense? Is that a question? Oh, it's not long before

Cece:

all of that, you pick the word shame. We all, first of all, parents have shame too. Yes. So we, we want to make sure we're not going at this place from a one down place of our, we did wrong and I'm so sorry. It's okay to be accountable, but that's not the same as being penitent in front of our kids, that doesn't really help them, they do need an adult in the room, even if they don't think they do. So we don't want to be one down and overly humble, but at the same time acknowledge that we, so we want to work with our shame so we're not coming at the same time. from a place of feeling, and I know this isn't the right word, but feeling weak, or one down, or not strong. You know, we don't, but we also don't have to say we have all the answers, because we don't. None of us has all the answers. No one has all the answers to addiction. No one has, you know, so whoever says they do wrong, you know, we have, we just have an approach. And when our kids are struggling and suffering, it's not going to get fixed in a day or a week. It's a process. So I always say that families were heading in the right direction. I wish it was over too. We're heading in the right direction and this is what we do, we are, we are steadfast. So around shame issues and knowing that our kids are not feeling good about themselves and knowing that's under there, what we can also do is watch our judgment and watch our criticism and always start with what's going right. When someone's using and there's an issue around food, there's an issue around substances, it's so easy to have the entire relationship revolve around food. Even in our heads, are they using, are they not using, are they watching? How do they look today? They look set. They look un, are they set? Are they tired? Are they up late? What was happening when they're up late? That talk track is just

Brenda:

incessant,

Cece:

right? Yeah. So those are all our managers. They're torturing us and we really wanna work with them so they don't end up torturing our child as well, because our child doesn't care about that. They cannot. You don't have it in them, you just feel shamed by them. So when we can say, I have parts of me that are obsessing about you a little bit, I have parts of me that are just kind of worried, but I don't want to be like that with you. I don't want to add to whatever it is you're holding. I have parts of me that could go there. I used to sit, I remember saying to my daughter one time, I know I'm like a runaway train with my mouth. You know, I will try to stop in this moment. My other daughter said to me once. When I said, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I know I'm rushing. I'm being patient. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. She goes, Ma, don't you think you should have gotten patience before you became a mother? You got this

Brenda:

in

Cece:

the

Brenda:

wrong order, Mom.

Cece:

Yeah, yeah. I love it. I love it. And I said yes, but I did say to her, you know your grandma. I'm a step over grandma. I've been working on it. You know, my mom was a wild woman. So Around shame, and I think I want to add something here, and I am going to sort of diverge, I also want to think about family legacy. So for our parents, if, and so many of the people I work with grew up in families where there were some difficulties, that, you know, if we had a parent who drank alcohol, if we have a parent who overused their prescription medication, if we had a parent who was having an affairs and everybody knew it and nobody talked about it, we have a parent who gambled, or parents, Parents with mental illness couldn't get out of bed, severe depression, or other kinds of difficulties. So we're the parent now, but this is how we grew up. So we were parentified. We grew up fast, and we grew up early, and we grew up self reliant. But we grew up with a lot of shame. I'm not normal. I have to hide my real family. I have to hide my real feelings. I have to hide my reality. There's so much going on with parents. So, I always want to say, just kind of, there's a generational piece too. Parents for Children wants I can't tell you how many times, you know, grandparents had issues. Parents then became the managers, right? Grandparents, one or both were firefighters with various behaviors of drinking, drugs, uh, relationships, neglect, or just, they were not well. Parents become managers very, very young, right? Yeah. We grew up super fast. Or we could become the firefighter kid who gets in fights and, and, you know, has drugs and alcohol. Let's go with this really responsible parent who's been a manager since they were four or five or something and and they have a lot of shame that they haven't had a chance in a way to work with their own loneliness and shame and isolation in their own lives and then they have a child who might start using something. And it's like, what? I already, I already lived that life. I ain't going back. Right? I can't handle it. So all that's happening for the parent is their child, you know, the fear and also the rage. Yes. When we grew up with a parent who has neglected us, we have parts that have anger. Anger is a healthy reaction to injustice. And, but when it's, when it's never listened to, it can become rageful. So, you know, a parent might have rage, firefighters, might have heavy duty managers, might have their own shame, and then they have a child who's struggling. So, you know, obviously, if you can get any kind of therapy assistance, it's really, really good. But what I'll say in a moment is for us parents to be better about speaking about our own feelings and just to be honest, I struggled. Your grandpa drank all the time. I had to grow up fast. I'm scared when I see you drink. You look like him, or you remind me of him. And I have parts that are worried about it. It's, it feels like there's, it's almost a family legacy. You know, and what would it feel like to not rage at your child, and not be only scared, but to speak for our fears? And we can, and we can use parts language. I have another part of me that knows you're not at all your grandpa. And I know you're not, or you're not your grandma. And you're not me. And you're not your dad, or you know, divorce situation. Dad drank, dad used. Now mom's with the kids. Dad's not really helpful. Kids, you know, there's all that polarity between the parents. And it's really good for the parents. A part of me is scared for you to be using, because it reminds you of your dad. But another part of me knows you aren't your dad. You're you. You're my son. You're my daughter. You're my treasure, but these are my fears. So to speak for our parts, to speak for and to be honest about the legacy that we carry.

Brenda:

What kind of came to mind for me when you were saying that first of all, I love the language around part of me is feeling like this when I see you do this because it It doesn't say, you're crazy, you're bad, you're this, you're that, it's, it's a reflection on how I'm feeling. Just using those words in the language might spark in our kids. Oh, wait, my mom's got a couple of different parts or my dad has like, this part of him is this, and maybe would they start to recognize that about themselves? Is this a way that we could even potentially introduce this concept to them of, you also have some different parts, like you have a part of you that really wants to go out and go to that party tonight and get really wasted. And then you might also have a part where you're like, yeah, but if I do, then I can't get to the football game in the morning. Is this a way that we could at least start to like, Softly introduce this to our kids,

Cece:

you said it perfectly because the kids have the polarity. We have to remember that the kids, there's another, there's another aspect of I have asked called self, which is when we can sort of like the sun behind the clouds when we can, when the clouds separate a little bit, we can feel a little bit more regulated and normal parents or adults. So just reflecting to the kids, your parts, I have these, and you have parts. You have parts that love to get wasted, you want to be with your friends, you want to do what they're doing, and you also have parts that care about this other stuff and don't want to feel sick and don't want to be in trouble. And I get that you have both, and that's normal for, for you and for teenagers. So I love that, uh, it's just a way to help kids notice it and that they have, they have a polarity. If you, if there is a parent, there's a divorce, there's, To really just say a part of your father or mother gets angry, or a part of your father or mother doesn't pay attention. A part of them is creating a situation where you feel stressed there. And I know they also have inside them love you, but I hear, how is those parts affecting you? Well, a part of you feels angry, and then a part of you just wants it to be nice because you only have so much time with them. But then when you come home, you feel angry here. So that makes sense, but it's a part, you know, so using parts to describe, particularly other bad behavior. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Without demonizing the whole person, you said it so beautifully. How do we not demonize ourselves? How do, as bad parents, how do we not demonize a parent that we might be estranged from? Speak of them in certain ways. But without, you know, uh, knowing that there's more to them than any behaviors, always more to a person than their basic behavior. But the same time boundaries, but yet you can't be within a car with your dad or, you know, whatever the boundaries and then our kids, a part of you. And I see how hard you work. So many kids now are so striving. They feel so much pressure. They know their rank. They know they're trying to take extra classes to have extra points. They're 11 and a half. And parents want to be good and they don't want to put stress on them. But in there's a, that balance between preparing your kids for the future, but not pressuring your kids for the future. And finding that balance is not perfect. So, for many kids I notice who get involved in soothing, there's also, they also can be those very, very high achieving kids. And so, the higher they achieve and the more pressure and stress they put on themselves, the more they need to soothe and check out because their inner, they can't turn their brain off. So, you know, and underneath it is, I'm still not enough, right?

Brenda:

Right, right. How do we start to get those different parts to, to talk to each other and I don't know. Can they ever become friends? Or is it always this antagonistic relationship between like the firefighter and the manager? Or can they get to know each other and be like, okay, dude, I see what you're doing here. Totally makes sense. But here, let me give you my thoughts. Like, can you get to that point? How do we do that? Absolutely.

Cece:

It's sort of like with a person. If you ignore them, they'll act out. If you pay attention to them, they'll soften up. So when we pay attention to our parts, or if you were just in the parent role, saying I'm, you need both, you do need a part that works hard, you know, in some kind of way, even though I see you weren't working a little too hard, maybe, and you do need a part that relaxes and doesn't, and feels carefree, you need both. So sort of modeling for our kids, you know, that it's okay to have both. They don't have to be at war, we want to welcome both, although we also want to notice. Is there something underneath them? Is there something else happening? That sense of loneliness, or what is it, you know, asking our kids those questions. What is it like for you when you are trying to be perfect, turning it so hard? What is it really like for you on the inside? I can imagine that you feel like you're not enough and just, you know, we can't change our kids feelings as much as we want to. Rip certain things out of their mind, right? But we can say, but I don't see you there. And I'm okay with you wherever you go to college. I'm okay with you whether or not you're on the dance team. I love you. And, you know, I know you want this and I want to support what you want, but just so you know, we're good no matter what, you know, so even though, and, and I get that you have these parts. So attuning to these parts and normalizing that can go a long way towards helping them not have to be in a battle. It's not, one of them is not going to win or lose. You're always going to have a part that works hard and you're always going to have a part that needs to relax. We just don't want them to be too extreme, but we listen to them and acknowledge them. It can soften that. Does that, you know?

Brenda:

Yeah, that definitely helps. It's, I was just trying to figure out how we start to try and get a little bit more balance and equilibrium between, between the three, knowing that if there was maybe, you know, a severe trauma, neglect or abuse or something like that, that naturally one is going to be, Much more overdeveloped and overprotective or, you know, harder working and is, is, uh, I'm thinking of a parent who's listening and thinking, oh, this makes a lot of sense. I would love to get my kiddo in with a therapist who could work with them. Is this something that works well with teens and young adults or

Cece:

internal Family Systems has a huge website and there's a place where you can go to find therapists. There, there are books, you know, just, there's books. A part of me for teens is an IFS book for kids. There's, uh, another books we all have parts, which is kind of good for families. And that one relates also to families where there's some been some kind of trauma and some kinds of, you know, compulsive behaviors when we all have parts. My own book, I wrote IFS therapy for addictions and I wrote it for therapists, but all kinds of people read it. People who, uh, you know, kids wouldn't like it necessarily. Parents might like it, especially if you grew up with something in your family because it gives us a chance. There's little worksheets and that we can, we'll kind of work with our manager parts and our own

Brenda:

exiles

Cece:

and get little sheets to write on, but it also helps with that paradigm shift. Like, how can I think about these firefighters in a good way? And not really just be. So polarized around my need to control. We like accept that we want to control it. We all want to control our kids. We have parts that want to control our kids. Tell them what to do. Just do what I say and you'll be fine. Part, but then the sense, that sense of. Knowing, you know, how is that part of impacting my kid?

Brenda:

Right, right. And I, I just, my brain keeps going back to that language that you used about a part of me really wants to control you and a part of me really wants to just tell you what to do. Yes. And there's also a part of me that knows that that's probably not going to be helpful. And so I'm going to step back. As

Cece:

hard as that is. Yeah, exactly. No, perfect. And that's actually the exact language that therapists use. Can you have that part just stick there for a little while? You know, and just to say, and I'm working on it and I'm not perfect on you. I'm not, sometimes I know I'm too strong. Sometimes I know I yell at you. Sometimes I know I'm impatient. Yeah. But, and I, but here's, can we have a conversation? And I want to hear, and you know this, I'm sure it's on every podcast. Which is, you know, stop talking

Brenda:

and just

Cece:

say, tell me more.

Brenda:

We call it a lip chip. We keep thinking we want to create a lip chip, you know, like for your bag of chips that you have the little clip on. We need one for our lips so that we can just shut up.

Cece:

I love that. I love that. Oh, I love that. Yeah. And then to say, okay, you know, but if we can catch ourselves, so there's this, I say just pause, take a breath, notice. How, you know, just ask your child, okay, how's this conversation going for you?

Brenda:

Mmm.

Cece:

You know, is there anything that I said that's stressing you on? What did I say that, what did I say that you, that makes sense to you and what did I say that you hate? Or what did you say that I, did I say that you liked? What did you say? You know, welcoming those, that polarity, those different parts. Ooh, that's very powerful. You know, and so to invite them to have parts, even for little kids, I'm thinking about Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Their six year old son was yelling, goes, I hate you, dad. And he said, we'll try this. A part of me hates you, dad. He goes, okay. I mean, he's too dead. He goes, how does that feel? He goes, better. You know? So even with little kids, they understand there's an intuitive sense that we are more than one particular feeling. Yeah. So it's, it doesn't matter the age, you know, it's just normal to normalize. All of that is possible. At any age, young and the old.

Brenda:

Yes. Well, from where you sit, if you were to talk to a couple thousand parents and, and give them any words of wisdom or encouragement, what would you say to them?

Cece:

First, I'd say never give up. You know, that even on a dark day when we're really scared and when we're really worried, it is the parts of the child. And our steadfastness and continued love has more of a message than we think in any given moment. That we're still here no matter what, I think is so important, even when there's really dark days. So that there's always, there's always hope, uh, I think is really important. And the other thing is I think I might just say, uh, forgive ourselves as parents. That we aren't going to be perfect and we are going to make mistakes and parts of us will take over from time to time. And that will be the norm, but to be accountable, not guilty, but accountable and just to speak for it. I'm sorry. That was a part of me. Oh, great. I'm so glad you have the apartment. Well, you already know I do have it. Right, right. I'm just acknowledging that it's here and I'm trying not to let it take over our conversation. You know, to speak and to speak for our and acknowledge our complexity and welcome our complexity and forgive ourselves for being complex. It's anger and frustration and impatience and despair.

Brenda:

Yeah. Oh, thank you so much. This was beyond enlightening. I'm, I feel like I already want to go back and re listen just, just to grab everything that we talked about, but I appreciate it so much. We're going to get links in the show notes, uh, for your book, for the other books that you mentioned. Cause I think it would be great for a family to be able to, to kind of dive into this together. Yeah.

Cece:

Thank you so much for having me.

Brenda:

Okay, my friend, that is a wrap for today. Don't forget to download the new ebook, Worried Sick. It's totally free and it will shed so much light on positive tools and strategies you can use right now to start creating those positive conditions for change in your home and in your relationships. It is at hopestreamcommunity. org forward slash worried. And guess what? We have moved the entire podcast to our website at HopeStreamCommunity. org. So now when you want the show notes or resources, or if you want to download a transcript, just go to HopeStreamCommunity. org and click on podcast and you will find it all there. You can search by keyword, episode number, guest name. And we have created playlists for you, makes it much easier to find episodes grouped by topic. So we're really excited to have that done and hope you like the podcast's new home. Please be extraordinarily good to yourself today. Take a deep breath. You've got this and you are going to be okay. You're not doing it alone. I will meet you right back here next week.

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Brenda Zane

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