Unmasking Trauma's Role in Addiction and Family Healing, with Dr. Amy Hoyt

ABOUT THE EPISODE:

For those who haven't seen their child's life endangered by the misuse of substances, calling the experience "trauma" may sound like an exaggeration. But my guest today says that the effects on the body and mind are almost identical.    

Dr. Amy Hoyt has been working in the field of trauma for 10 years, with studies ranging from genocide to addiction. But her understanding isn't just academic.  After suffering sexual abuse in her teens, Amy repressed the memories and began drinking before high school classes every morning. With the help of a good friend and parents who were willing to step in, she has been in recovery for many years.

Over the course of her career, Amy has learned that toxic and vicarious stress mimic the effects of trauma in the body and mind. Constant stress changes our gene expression, and can even "turn on" experiences of pain, gut symptoms like IBS, autoimmune disorder, fibromyalgia, and serotonin issues.

In this episode, Amy reviews some of the current research on stress and trauma relevant to kids using substances AND their parents, proven methods to down-regulate an overworked nervous system, and why psychological pain isn't "all in your head."

EPISODE RESOURCES:

• The Mending Trauma Podcast
• Dr. Hoyt’s website
• Dr. Hoyt on Instagram
• Peace After Trauma Membership

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Transcript

0:01

Toxic stress, which is a sustained high level of stress, mimics trauma in the body, in the brain. It can be death or loss of a caretaker. It can be divorce. It can be significant bullying. It can be economic hardship with the family. There are many. What we might consider not traumatic things that happen and in childhood cause toxic stress and trauma Welcome to hope stream a podcast where you'll hear interviews Conversations and encouraging words for parents of teens and young adults who struggle with substance misuse and mental health I'm Brenda Zane, your host and a fellow parent whose child struggled. I'm so glad you're here. Take a deep breath and know you're not doing this alone anymore. Hello, friend. Quick check in before we dive in with Dr. Amy Hoyt to make sure you are breathing, that you've had some water or something good for you today. And if not, Take a deep breath, go grab some water, and get ready for a conversation that will be so helpful around the topic of chronic stress and trauma and everything it does to us and to our kids. This is a very eye opening conversation that unveils a connection between stress, the body, and recovery. Including our own recovery that I really want you to hear. Dr. Amy Hoyt is certified in Traumatic Stress Studies by the Trauma Research Foundation. She is trained in neurofeedback, somatic practices, and addiction and recovery. Dr. Hoyt has been working in the field of trauma for 10 years as a researcher of mass trauma, including genocide and apartheid, and individual trauma. She is an author, a speaker, and a podcaster, yay, and she is passionate about helping others learn to break free from the chains of past trauma using research and science. Definitely check out the podcast. It's called the Mending Trauma Podcast and it is so informative. It's also really cool that Dr. Hoyt hosts it with her sister, who is a licensed therapist. Plus the episodes are nice and short, like 15, 20 minutes, so you can snack on them when you're running around. which is an extra bonus. And if you go to mending trauma. com, there are so many resources. They offer a piece after trauma membership, neurofeedback sessions. They even do trauma informed workplace training, really incredible resources. After the episode, be sure to check out MendingTrauma. com. When I sat down with Dr. Hoyt, she shared her personal journey from childhood sexual trauma and addiction to recovery and becoming a trauma expert. You'll hear her thoughts on the importance of early intervention, even if someone doesn't want treatment. And we also dove into the touchy topic of the prevalence of online bullying and sex torsion as modern forms of trauma for our young people. Dr. Hoyt shares how effective trauma treatments are like somatic therapies and how they can help not just our kids, but us as well. And if you are like me and you have digestive issues or chronic pain that is unexplained, you are going to love this episode. I could have talked all day with Dr. Hoyt. She is such a joy to be with. So without further delay, please take a listen to this conversation with me and Dr. Amy Hoyt of Mending Trauma. Enjoy. Dr. Amy Hoyt, welcome to Hope's Dream. Looking forward to this conversation. I was just telling you that I was doing some research and I got so sidetracked on some of your content because it's so good that I kind of lost focus of what I was going to talk to you about. But I figure when it comes to trauma, addiction, kids, parenting, there's no shortage of things that we could cover. So welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me, Brenda. And I'm really excited about our conversation. I think trauma has kind of become one of my favorite topics, not because I feel like I've had a huge, like I didn't have a huge amount of like childhood trauma or anything, but just going through my son's experience with a high risk lifestyle with addiction. Holy cow. And I want to get into that with you cause I kind of want to understand trauma and PTSD for parents. Sure. But, Before, because before I do that, I just have to like hold myself back because there's so much I want to talk with you about. It's like, do you have three hours? Like a lot of these, you know, these podcasts are like three hours long. I don't, I don't do that to people, but, uh, I would love to just get some history on you, how you came to be really interested in working in trauma. And some of your personal story that I know. Helped lead you there, but I think it would be helpful for our parents to hear from you and some of that background. Sure Yeah, I'm happy to share if if I can Help anyone through my own story in my own recovery. That is that means more to me than anything really? Yeah well I had significant childhood trauma like many people do and mine included physical and sexual abuse and at quite a young age and so by the time I was 15 I had discovered alcohol. It felt like the answer to all my problems. And so I guess the first thing I want to call out is that often when we have significant trauma, and I realize not everyone is. So I was, you know, coming to addiction because of trauma, but often when we do have significant trauma, alcohol or drugs, they're solving a problem for us. And for me, I needed to numb some of that pain cause I was still living in the environment. In high school I became more dependent on alcohol and marijuana to the point where I was drinking every day before school. And you know, of course, as you know, that leads to other high risk activities. And it was the middle of my senior year in high school my best friend actually went to my parents and told them what was going on. Wow. And that, oh, I was so upset, of course, not understanding where my addiction was coming from, not even recognizing that I had addiction. But kudos to my parents. They actually sent me into a program. I went to Hazleton in Minnesota into their youth program and spent 30 days there getting sober and I thought I was going to get to go home and then they said, no, you, you get to go to a halfway house. So I spent several, I think four to five months at in a halfway house in Minnesota. And that's where the real work. I mean, the first 30 days were critical and then really learning how to do life and have that access to therapists and to support was really, really beneficial. And that's when all of my memories started coming back about abuse. For so many of us, when we have something like that happen when we're young, we, our brain protects us and it tucks that away. And upon getting sober. My brain allowed me to remember different things and so that really started this process of working on myself and finding out how to recover from things that I was powerless to. Yeah. Wow. Okay. I already have a hundred questions. Yeah. Go for it. Just about this. So you didn't remember the, the abuse, but you were drinking, so you didn't know why you were drinking necessarily or why you were using, you just knew that there was something that it helped. Yep. And I think this is a critical point for parents to know. And we, we even teach in, in our approach to community reinforcement and family training, you know, ask your kid, well, what is the substance doing for them? And it's solving a problem. But if they don't even know why they're doing it, there's only limited amount of information they're going to be able to give you. That's fascinating. And then the other thing that I was thinking about is if this is fairly common, like you said that, you know, now with a clear brain and probably some age and brain wiring, you remember these events, couldn't that potentially be a trigger for a relapse or like a return to That coping mechanism that you had found. Yeah. Is that something that happens or? It can. And I think that's why, I mean, I had a lot of anger issues too, as you can tell from my story. I was so mad that they didn't send me home after 30 days. I was sure that they were exaggerating that I was addicted. I was positive that they were exaggerating. I needed a a support network, like a halfway house. But as professionals, they saw different symptoms that I had and knew there was more there. Now that I'm certified in trauma and I work in mental health and trauma recovery, I have those skills as well. But what we're talking about really is aligning with professionals when as parents, we don't quite know what happened. And, you know, and I was not abused. By a sibling, it was a foster brother that had come in to live at, you know, in our home. And my parents thought they were doing this wonderful service, which they were. Yeah. So they, they were just clueless. So I think having that halfway house, when I did start having memories, they did come as flashbacks. And as your listeners probably are aware of flashbacks, uh, manifest as if you're in the. Yeah. exact time and space you were before. And so because I was in that halfway house environment, I was able to have immediate professional attention. I mean, the therapists were downstairs in their office and I was up in my apartment and that led actually to a lot of work for my family as well. And so The other thing I think is important is that as we look at our children who are suffering from addiction, for whatever reason, when they start to recover, they're probably going to come to us with things that are really uncomfortable and really possibly unpleasant. And I have to say, my parents were amazing. They believed me. That was huge. They took immediate measures to check in with my other siblings, who unfortunately were also all sexually abused by the same person. They started going to Al Anon. They started, they, you know, they were like, what can we do? They came out for family week at Hazleton. They really jumped in and made some significant changes in their life. to make it a more hospitable environment for me to be authentic, which helped me stay sober. Wow. It's so wonderful that they witnessed your Trauma and your pain and accepted it because that would have been another trauma, right? Exactly you if you hadn't been believed exactly that this had happened to you, which I know happens in so many families because That can let's say it was an uncle or a you know, exactly A neighbor. Yeah. A neighbor. It can divide a family when something like that happens and one camp believes and one camp doesn't believe. Yes. So that is really amazing that they believed you and that they got involved in the healing process. The other question that I would love to get your thoughts on is that. Early intervention. So you were 18, right? When you went, because so many parents are so hesitant to enforce treatment or to really, really push and encourage and, and motivate their kids to get into treatment. So then what I'm imagining is this could have gone on for you forever, for years and years and years. What are your thoughts on kind of that early intervention and what that did? That's a great question. At the time, of course, I was angry. I tried to leave home so that I wouldn't be sent to treatment. And but looking back, I think that was one of the greatest gifts they ever gave me. And we have a complicated relationship. They're not perfect people. And, you know, we don't have a perfect relationship, but I knew they loved me. And despite my anger, I truly believe that they had a very small window to get me help because I was leaving for college. You know, I had been accepted to university, which I ended up having to postpone because I didn't graduate from high school in time. And they were also able to let go of all of that, right? The public trapping of our child is not graduating. Our child is not going to this college that she worked hard to get into. Yeah, but I think I think it was inspired. I am a very spiritual person. I think they followed their intuition or their spiritual leanings and they knew they needed to get me help. And I think that was one of the greatest things they've given me. Hmm. I love hearing that because it is so difficult as a parent to do that sometimes. Yeah. Especially when you're, you're a young person is Yelling at you, telling you you're ruining my life. Oh, yeah, I did all that You're stealing time from me and all the things that they say and you have to sort of steal yourself in the knowledge that You could be breaking a pattern that will give your kiddo an amazing long life healthy life. Absolutely. Versus what if you had gone on for another 15 or 20 years? And also, can we just give your girlfriend a shout out for going? Thank you, Rebecca French. Yes. I mean, that's amazing. Isn't it? And so brave of her. Yeah. Are you still friends with her? We are. Yeah. We're still friends. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. So awesome. Talk about a gift. Just such a beautiful thing for her to do, which had to have been hard and scary because she was probably thinking, I'm risking losing my friend, right? She's going to be so mad at me. I was, I was super angry. But it all was for my own good. I just couldn't see that. You can't. Like when you're in that. You can't. Well, we talk a lot about in our program, you know, because as you know, we help people with trauma and PTSD and we talk a lot about how. The brain is not fully formed until our mid to late 20s. And so as parents, we need to be our teenagers prefrontal cortex, their wise mind, their center of logic, because they literally, the prefrontal cortex is the last to fully develop in the brain. And that's where we make our wise decisions from. And so as parents, sometimes we do need to step in, I'd say kind of often and help be the prefrontal cortex. Yes. Even when it is unwelcomed. A hundred percent. Cause when is a teenager ever like, please make that decision for me. Thanks mom. Yeah. That's really helpful. Yes. As I have a couple of teenagers now. Yes. I'm, I'm more, even more appreciative of what my parents were able to do. Yes. Well, when you are, there's so many directions I want to go with you, but one thing I would love to. So the question here is that when you are working with a a patient who has significant trauma and addictions, besides sexual abuse that might have happened, what are some of the common traumas? And maybe you could talk about the difference between, you know, there's this question of, quote unquote, big T traumas and little T traumas and help clear that up for us so that we can understand like, what, what are you typically seeing? Absolutely. So first of all I became certified through Bessel van der Kolk's organization and he's, you know, the godfather of trauma right now. This I think is one of the most important things to remember as a parent that toxic stress, which is a sustained high level of stress mimics trauma. in the body, in the brain. And so when we talk about trauma, You can insert toxic stress in that situation and they show up the same. And I think what that does is it helps me as a parent realize that if my child is showing symptoms of trauma, it doesn't always mean that something was done to them. It could also mean that our kids are under an enormous amount of stress, which they are. Right. Especially if they're You know, trying to get into college or I mean, just the, the, uh, living in a family, none of our families are perfect. That that can be stressful depending on what's happening. A divorce could cause toxic stress. We're not intentionally doing anything to our children. We could even be getting divorced to preserve safety and to. Create a healthier environment, but there are many, many things that create the same symptoms. And so I think that's important for parents to understand. Typical trauma could be of course, I mean, just looking at what's called the adverse childhood experience list, ACEs those, You know, 10 to 12 questions, depending on what year you're looking at that test. It can be death or loss of a caretaker. It can be divorce. It can be significant bullying. It can be economic hardship with the family. There are many, what we might consider. traumatic things that happen and in childhood cause toxic stress and trauma. Okay. That's super helpful. And I'm glad you said bullying because I think what parents don't realize today is that Our kids are often being bullied online and virtually and we have no idea. That's right. And that happened to my son. There was a very bizarre like fake Facebook profile that was created to sort of lure him into a relationship and you know, you don't see that because unless you find the phone with the photo or the threat, whatever. You might not know and then your kids don't want to tell you because they're embarrassed or they're ashamed or whatever And so I'm really glad you said that because I think that one gets forgotten quite a bit Sure, the amount that kids are online. Yes, and especially with young males we're seeing a sharp increase in sextortion the creating of a fake relationship and then extorting them with images of Of their genitals or doing things. I mean that there are, there's been a massive increase in sextortion amongst teens and especially young boys being targeted. So we can't discount that kind of trauma. No, and, and that's not the kind of thing that it's easy to go to your parents about and be like, Oh, hey, so. Yeah. I know you said never to send a photo of, yeah, but I did. And now they're saying they need X amount of dollars or they're going to put it all online. Yes. Oh my gosh. Think of the stress that that would put you under. Oh, I can't even imagine. And that is sexual abuse as well. Yeah. I mean, so it, you know, it's, it's a newer type of abuse in the last few years, but there has been a very sharp increase in that in the last, uh, about 24 months. If you go onto the FBI's website, you can look at statistics and the, the jump in this particular crime. Wow. Okay. That's good to know. And it's if you're not listening in real time, it's the middle of 2024. Just to let people know, because somebody might hear this in five years and they're like, what? And who knows? I don't even want to think about what's going to be going on then. But that is really good to know. And for parents to just be really sensitive to the fact that like what you were just saying about their brain, not being online necessarily that prefrontal cortex. So they, are going to do irrational, crazy, stupid things that we would look at. And say, well, why in the world would you ever send a photo or a video or even engage in this dialogue with this person that you don't even know but we're working with a fully formed brain. That's right. And I think the best thing we can do as parents, I mean, then this goes for addiction as well, is to constantly reinforce with our children, there is literally nothing you could ever do that would make me not love you. Love you, and yes, if you make a mistake, we will deal with it, but nothing you ever do can take away how much I love you. Will it fix everything? No, but hopefully it opens up some sort of sense that, you know what, I really messed up and I'm going to confide in mom or dad. I got to imagine that there's a pretty significant relationship between trauma like that and suicide or, or attempted suicide. That's, and that's what they're finding is there is a very tight relationship between sex torture and suicide. And it happens to kids as young as, I think there was a 10 year old I saw in the news a couple weeks ago, so it's never too early to start having those conversations. They are, if they have any access to the internet, then those conversations need to happen. Yes, definitely. I was just listening to a podcast the other day and talking about sort of the access and the recommendations that kids now don't have social media until they're 16 because of this exact reason and going through puberty and not having a fully formed brain. Yes. It is just a very, very dangerous situation to put a phone with full internet access. It is hands like opening your home to the whole world. Come on in. There's good stuff and there's dangerous stuff. Yes, exactly. So, uh, one of the other areas I wanted to explore with you is in thinking about the parents who are sitting here with us in their ear, who might be like me, who have all kinds of stomach issues, who, uh, feel this kind of constant level of anxiety in their chest. And just, I know like in my case, it was about five or six years of just this ongoing insanity and chaos in my house. And so there were some fairly traumatic events that happened with my son. Certainly he overdosed. And so being Sitting with him on life support was very traumatic But I'm thinking of the years leading up to that where it felt like death by a million paper cuts, right? It's like this little thing and then that little thing and then you know over and over and over and over and Maybe you can talk to us about what that is and what that's doing to our bodies Absolutely. Well, we know From the latest research that trauma and toxic stress are held in the body and that's where they manifest. So before we remember or conjure up any sort of memory or image, our body is already processing and feeling it. And so when we're in a constant state of stress with our children over addiction or any other behavior that is really high risk, we are going to have a constant sense of stress. And what that does is it dumps Cortisol, it dumps adrenaline, it essentially turns on our nervous system to high alert. So the nervous system connects our brain through our spine, and if you think about the nervous system as. Almost having like fingers that go all throughout the body from, you know, again, your head to your toes and those chemicals and that sense of stress is being conveyed all the way down your body. What we're, what we talk about is a lot, a lot of digestive issues. I mean it is very clear, the research is very clear That we see higher rates of IBS with people with trauma and toxic stress, we see higher rates of autoimmune disorder, and we see higher rate of undiagnosed, but very real pain. So fibromyalgia the things that. You know, 10 years ago were considered more fringe. Like, is that even a thing? Is that a diagnosis? Yes. It comes from the constant toxic stress and trauma that we are experiencing. Here's the rub and. And this is where, I mean, I feel so passionate about this is once that's turned on and perpetually turned on in us, it is very difficult to turn it back down and to regulate our nervous system. And so that's one of the things we work the most on with our clients is helping them to regulate a chronically dysregulated nervous system. That looks like tools like somatic work, somatic being of the body, EMDR. neurofeedback some cognitive work, but we're really working in the body. Internal family systems is another approach we use. And so if you find that you're experiencing trauma and toxic stress, and you're having these physical symptoms, you want to look for a practitioner that works with the body. And that is critical, absolutely critical to down regulate the nervous system. Hey there, are you feeling stuck in a cycle of drama and arguments with your child, worried sick about their substance use? I have been there and I want you to know there's hope. This podcast is just one piece of the curated and trustworthy resources and solutions we offer for parents. We recognize you need emotional support and a solid plan for moving forward, making positive change in your family. So in addition to connecting with other parents and feeling like part of something bigger, we also teach you practical skills and strategies to dial down the drama and diffuse those heated moments. We step you through the evidence based craft approach, a game changer that can help you invite your child to accept help without resorting to tough love or waiting for rock bottom. We have so much more than the podcast waiting for you. Head over to HopeStreamCommunity. org to tap into all of our resources and become part of the HopeStream family in our private online community. Remember, you're not alone in this. We're doing it together. Now let's get back to the conversation. I got to a point. In my son's journey where I could not even walk around a block, my legs hurt so bad, like this tingly, burning sensation through the insides of my legs. And I went to Every doctor, every specialist, they all said, you're the healthiest, you know, woman we've ever seen. And I'm like, well, what, then why can't I walk? And it was one neurologist who looked me in the eyes and he said exactly what you just said. He said, I'm not saying, I'm not discounting that this is not real pain. I know it is real pain, but it is from, you know, your stress level. It's it's a, I don't know all the right terminology, but basically he was telling me, this is a stress induced, it's psychological, you need to go deal with that. And, and then your legs, the pain will go away. And I was like, what? Like, you wrong. Yeah, like, you gotta, you gotta like, give me something for this. And, and you're right with the gut too. It is so real. And my listeners are going to be tired of me saying this, but I see issues and I am, you know, seven years past our worst thing. And so I wonder if it's ever going to resolve. So I think it's really important to just highlight this so that people understand, because especially women. We tend to discount, right? Like, Oh, I have a stomach ache. Oh, I have a headache. And then the people around us are like, you're always complaining about something. You always have a headache. You always have a stomach ache. Your back always hurts. You're like, like, And so then we tend to feel a little bit guilty about that or like we're super high maintenance or we're complainers. And so, Listen to the doctor. Yes. And well, and I think when you're in an emergency and it does feel like an emergency, when you have an active addiction in the home, it feels like a constant emergency. And when you're in an emergency situation, remember we go into fight flight. So we're going to automatically discount any of our own needs and that piles up. To the point where even when the quote unquote emergency has resolved it's very difficult to down regulate. And, and I want to just go back to something you said that is accurate that the doctor told your neurologist told you that it is psychological, but it is real pain. And sometimes when we hear it's psychological, we think, Oh, the pain isn't real. And it's all in our head. That is actually not what's happening. What's happening is. Our nervous system is actually leading to an expression of our genes that differently, and there's tons of studies, you know, I worked in Rwanda on mass trauma for several years, and the studies of the people who lived during the genocide, it's actually second and third generation that have the same, they have the same genetic Expression as if they had lived through the genocide Wow, and it will go down up to eight Generations research has found and so what that means is when we experience that toxic stress and trauma our genes start expressing differently And that is going to turn on pain that is going to turn on gut Symptoms that are not helpful for us and it can be cleared up It takes time and it takes a very firm dedication to working in our body and identifying. What's happening in our body, which is really tricky for us women because we're constantly trying to put out fires with our children and our partners and our work and sometimes to our peril. Yes, and I will just add one other little, you know, wrinkle in this is that many of us are going through this with our kids during menopause. So not only do we have all of the traumatic symptoms, we've got those layered on top of menopause symptoms, and so it's really hard to untangle which is which. And of course in the, don't even get me started on our healthcare system, but the, the typical doctor's visit is going to have you leaving with a prescription for a, some sort of a pill. That's right. And so I'm really glad that you talked about some, and maybe you can talk a little bit more about EMDR and some of these other practices because. If you can find a therapist who can work with you in that way, with some of these somatic practices, maybe, and I'd like to get your thoughts on, is it a combination of maybe you do need some pharmacology to at least get to a point of like, okay, I can live and then work toward more somatic practices? Like, what could that look like for somebody? I love this question, Brenda, because we always want to throw out the lifeline that's going to work the quickest and the most effective. And so I am in no way anti medication and the research shows that something like neurofeedback is just as effective as an antidepressant. And there are about 15 percent of people that neurofeedback doesn't work on. And so. You know, we want to be open to approaching different solutions and not be closed to anything. But at least for the SSRIs, the medication, what this looks like is it usually takes four to six weeks to really get in your system and feel better. And so if you have a neurofeedback practitioner that you trust or you're open to, and we do neurofeedback even remotely with clients. So if you find a neurofeedback practitioner, you can feel better within about the same timeframe. And so it really depends on, on what approach you want to try first. They can work together. Absolutely. If we're feeling suicidal immediately You know, contacting your doctor and getting whatever you need to do to get back to a baseline and then add the neurofeedback. If you're not feeling suicidal and you feel open to neurofeedback or EMDR, I would start with that approach. And stay open that sometimes you need a little help with serotonin. Yeah. Well, especially, and I, you, you know this, I don't, I just know of it, but I know that a good portion of our serotonin is made in our gut, and if our gut is wrecked from all the stress and the bad food that we're probably, that's right. Trying to, you know, sedate ourselves with, maybe share with us a little bit about that conundrum. The gut is called the second brain for a reason. Uh, the brain and the gut have a biodirectional relationship and the, the vast majority of our serotonin is produced in our gut. So when we are under constant toxic stress and trauma, and we start to have gut issues we are going to typically see a lowering of serotonin production. It's, it's, That's why depression, you know, is so prevalent in these situations. I'm an ice cream person. So, you know, I'm, I've been sober for many, many, many years and yet I can wreck my gut if I eat ice cream every night because I have stressed myself out during the day. And so the challenge is, so there's two approaches we take. If you are in the midst of a very traumatic situation we want to be really self compassionate that often we are doing the very best we can. And if that means a glass of wine or a pint of ice cream and that's keeping you from completely devolving, we never want to be critical of ourselves for making that choice. Instead, we want to be Curious. That's, that's so interesting. Why am I eating a pint of ice cream at night and usually about 8. 30 p. m. when I put the twins to bed? That's very interesting, Amy. Huh. So we want to notice without judgment, which is really difficult, especially for us women. We have that inner critic and we want to just look at those patterns. So that's, that's one school of thought I feel really strongly about because we can It's very difficult to change without self compassion. And then the other piece is when we do have a teeny bit of reserve. We want to take that information we've been gathering through our curiosity and we want to think about other choices we can make. Would it be more advantageous for me to get someone to talk to? Could I inquire about EMDR? Is neurofeedback a good practice to me, for me? And we want to start moving towards those choices. And what we find is as we move towards healthy choices, we don't have to necessarily cut ourselves off from that. The unhealthy, but as we start to add more healthy choices, eventually we don't need the unhealthy. And again, I'm not talking about a full blown addiction, I'm talking as a parent undergoing toxic stress and trauma. We do need a full blown getting sober, cutting off, when we're talking about a full blown addiction. Right. Could you talk a little bit about EMDR? I did it for myself. It was incredibly impactful. I cannot explain it to anybody. Sure. Yeah, absolutely. I just know that it really worked well for me. So I would love to have an expert explain what it is, how it works, all of the things. Absolutely. So EMDR stands for eye movement desensitization reprocessing. It's built on the research about. Using both sides of our body or brain to process memories and events. And so it was it. Francine Shapiro came up with it, and I think it was like in the late 80s, it might have been a little bit, no, I think it was in the late 80s. And she noticed when she was on a walk and she noticed when she moved her eyes from side to side on her walk, that she felt less stressed. She was thinking through problems. She was in graduate school and she noticed that for herself. And she started thinking, what if. Someone else was moving their eyes from side to side while they were processing a hard event or a hard memory. What would that do for them? And through her research, she found that What is called bilateral stimulation, which would be the eye movement from left to right, is extremely effective in opening both sides of the brain and allowing us to process at a deeper level. Now EMDR is actually the most researched trauma intervention because people were so reluctant about it. It seems so wacky. That's what I thought. It's like, there's no way this is going to work. Well, it does. And so with a practitioner, they guide you, there's eight steps. They guide you through Moving your eyes back and forth, and you think of, you know, the event you want to reprocess, there's not a lot of talking with EMDR. So what we know from trauma is when we experience trauma, that part of the brain that processes speech, Broca's area, shuts down. So it's very difficult for most of us to actually speak about the exact things that happen with our trauma. But we can reprocess them through this eye movement, and a practitioner walks you through it. And it's, it's miraculous. It is absolutely miraculous. I would agree with that. And, and when I did it, I didn't use my eyes, but there was these two little Tappers. Tappers on my, on my legs. Same thing, right? Okay, yeah. Interesting. And, and what about because so many of our kids are, are treatment resistant in the way of like going away to treatment. Yes. Yes. But they might be more open to just doing something locally with a therapist. If someone is actively in addiction or heavily using, can they do EMDR or no? Absolutely. I would want them to, you know, try and show up sober. That's ideal. But yes, they can reprocess, you can reprocess anything. So often when I'm participating in EMDR as a. patient, I reprocess something that's kind of been bugging me. It's not my capital T trauma. It's not my original abuse, but we know that trauma shows up in our everyday life. And so if I yelled at my kids last week and I am like, why, how did that happen? Cause why did you know what, you know, how, when you lose your temper, often it takes a little bit, like, I didn't even know I was upset. Yes. So I'll reprocess something like that. So we can reprocess. And actually that's ideal. We can reprocess smaller things and work our way back towards the original trauma. That can be really effective. Neurofeedback is really effective with helping people. Kind of decouple with addiction and trauma or toxic stress. And that involves brain training. And so again, a little bit different mechanism, but still somatic and still working through toxic stress and trauma and very helpful. So interesting. When you were talking about that, I was thinking like just focus group of one with my son, but he. Got so re traumatized by living in the lifestyle that he was living and seeing things that I wish he would have ever told me about because now they're in my memory and So what I'm thinking is with something like EMDR or with the neurofeedback is like you said to start walking back some of those maybe that are a little bit less scary. Yes. To start realizing, okay, this can be effective to get to the point where maybe you're dealing with the original trauma or traumas. And I try to really highlight the fact that there's not one way to get sober or to heal or whatever. Absolutely. Because a lot of treatment program. I got to send them to a 30 day treatment program or, you know, and, and actually I had a guest on recently who said, Oh, that's a very tiny percentage of people that actually go to treat, like actually go inpatient treatment. The majority of people don't. And so this seems like a really great. Yeah. Or make your child aware of, depending on how old they are, obviously, to say, Hey, you know, we don't want to send you away. Like the last thing a parent wants to do is send your kid away to treatment. Absolutely. Terrifying and terrible. So Absolutely. This is, this seems like it would be a very good step in the right direction that a young person might be more open to versus we have to send you to inpatient treatment. And for sure there are kids who need to go, mine was one, had to go, had, had, had to leave the house. But for those who don't, this seems really like a no brainer to start with. For sure. Yeah, I would agree. I think there are so many micro steps we can take that are really powerful. Trusting our own intuition as parents and our own spiritual guidance that we're feeling I think is really critical. I mean, that's, as anyone with more than one kid knows. Each child is very, very different, and you think you have parenting figured out, and then the other child needs a totally different approach. And so, it's really about approaching each of our children with that knowledge of who they are, and Really not discounting these micro steps, they can be very powerful. Yeah, it just, it feels like one more tool in the tool belt from a parent standpoint for ourselves. And, and I actually, now that I said that about my son telling me things, we have a lot of that because for the parents who do have kids who've been in treatment, a lot of times the kids have to write a letter. Yeah. Right. That says all of the things that they have done. I don't know what that, I don't exactly know the reasoning behind that, but I got one of those. And then as my son started remembering more stuff, as he became more clear headed, he remembered more, he shared more with me, and now all I'm sitting with all of that and I'm like, Oh my gosh, I know all these things that happened to my son or that he did. And that feels like trauma. Oh, a hundred percent. Vicarious trauma is a real thing. We see that with, uh, firefighters, EMT therapists. I mean, we do see vicarious trauma and so it can absolutely feel like that. And I think that the litmus test is if it's feeling like it's super burdensome and it's affecting how. our body feels and our cognition, then there is no shame in getting help for ourselves as well. One of the best things to come out of this literature with the nervous system is the idea of co regulation. And what that means is as the parent, our nervous system is talking to our child's nervous system, all like a wifi. We don't notice it. We don't necessarily understand. You know, consciously, but if we are constantly stressed and wound up, our child's nervous system is going to feel that. Conversely, if we're able to be the anchor for them and regulate ourselves and help them regulate, that's going to help them learn to self soothe in a healthy way. I think the co regulation is true at any age, right? Like. If I'm with my mom and she's sad or whatever, then I'm the same. So that's not necessarily just with younger kids. And I think that's too why I've done a little bit of equine therapy, which is so amazing because the horses regulate with You this in the same way. It's such a wonderful type of therapy. I love that. Yeah. Oh Well, we could go on and on for days But I need to let you go so you can get back to your your real full time job I'm I just want to make sure and give a shout out to your podcast the mending trauma podcast So I got completely derailed from prepping for this because I was listening to your podcast. So I just want to give a shout out to that. And then in the show notes, we're going to have links to where you can find Amy and her team. I think you work with your sisters. Is that right? I saw different Hoyt names on the website. I was like, what is this? One's a medical doctor. One's a licensed therapist. Yeah. We all have kind of different areas of trauma that we specialize in and yeah, yeah, it's I mean, to look at the arc of young addiction and recovery and abuse and to see, honestly, I wouldn't change anything. I feel so much gratitude that we're able to use what happened with us and to help other people. Oh, it's so beautiful. It's one of those, you know, we talk about silver linings and things like that, but it really is. And you probably know the, the Chinese farmer story, right? Where it's like, Well, this horrible thing happened. Well, maybe, or maybe it was actually a really good thing. So yeah, well, I can't thank you enough for joining us and for doing the work that you do. It's so, so important. And especially with your lived experience, having come through addiction, I think it just adds a whole layer of compassion and understanding that you can't have otherwise. So, so thank you for that. It's been an honor. Thank you. Okay, my friend, that is a wrap for today. Don't forget to download the new ebook, Worried Sick. It's totally free and it will shed so much light on positive tools and strategies you can use right now to start creating those positive conditions for change in your home and in your relationships. It is at hopestreamcommunity. org forward slash worried. And guess what? We have moved the entire podcast to our website at hopestreamcommunity. org. So now when you want the show notes or resources, or if you want to download a transcript, just go to HopeStreamCommunity. org and click on podcast and you will find it all there. You can search by keyword, episode number, guest name, and we have created playlists for you. Makes it much easier to find episodes grouped by topic. So we're really excited to have that done and hope you like the podcast's new home. Please be extraordinarily good to yourself today. Take a deep breath. You've got this and you are going to be okay. You're not doing it alone. I will meet you right back here next week