The Anxiety Factor: Untangling the Adolescent Anxiety And Substance Use Knot, with Jarell Myers. Ph.D.

ABOUT THE EPISODE:

When Dr. Jarrell Myers took his first job out of grad school, he loved working with children suffering from anxiety disorders, as well as their families. It was a calling he’d already been pursuing for years. But there was a big problem: many kids who needed needed help for their anxiety couldn’t become patients in his program because they were using substances.  

While this made some clinical sense (for reasons Jarell will explain), it also failed to acknowledge that substance use was woven into their anxiety, often as a coping mechanism.  This is what finally led him to the Center for Motivational Change (CMC).

CMC publishes the book I recommend more than any other to parents of kids struggling with substances – Beyond Addiction: How Science and Kindness Help People Change. Today I finally have a chance to speak with Dr. Myers about some of the core principles it contains.

In this episode, we discuss the nature of anxiety, why it makes sense that anxious kids to turn to substances, how parenting those kids may trigger our own fear and anxiety responses, and how to give our families the best fighting chance in the face of these realities.

EPISODE RESOURCES:

• Center for Motivation and Change
• Beyond Addiction: How Science and Kindness Help People Change
• Beyond Addiction Workbook for Friends and Family

This podcast is part of a nonprofit called Hopestream Community
Learn about The Stream, our private online community for moms
Learn about The Woods, our private online community for dads
Find us on Instagram: @hopestreamcommunity
Download a free e-book, Worried Sick: A Compassionate Guide For Parents When Your Teen or Young Adult Child Misuses Drugs and Alcohol

Hopestream Community is a registered 501(c)3 nonprofit organization and an Amazon Associate. We may make a small commission if you purchase from our links.

Transcript

Jarrell: 0:01

If I have a headache right now, I can end this conversation, run out into the bathroom, grab an Advil, take a swig of water with that. And I know in a few minutes, I'll be feeling better. Very similarly, substances provide an exceptionally strong short term relief from whatever we may be experiencing internally. And for kids, what more could you ask for? Right? I, I don't know any skills, I don't know how to talk about this, but this one thing that I do helps me to feel better. So I might as well do it.

Brenda: 0:47

You're listening to HopeStream. If you're parenting a young person who misuses substances, is in a treatment program, or finding their way to recovery, you're in the right place. This is your private space to learn from experts and gain encouragement and support from me, Brenda Zane, your host and follow mom to a child who struggled. This podcast is just one of the resources we offer for parents. So after the episode, head over to our website at hopestreamcommunity. org. I'm so glad you're here. Take a deep breath, exhale, and know that you have found your people. And now let's get into today's show. Hello, friend. I am pretty sure you're going to love the conversation on today's episode with Dr. Jarell Myers, because he is not just a clinical psychologist. He is a clinical psychologist who works with adolescents and is known in some places as the anxiety guy. Obviously, Dr. Myers is not just a guy. He is licensed in both New York and Massachusetts. With training in cognitive behavioral and dialectical behavioral approaches to treatment, he earned his doctorate in clinical psychology from Fairleigh Dickinson University and completed an APA accredited internship at Mount Sinai St. Luke's Hospital on the child and adolescent track. In addition, Dr. Myers completed a two year postdoctoral fellowship in child and adolescent psychology. at New York Presbyterian Hospital, Weill Cornell Medical Center, where he focused on the treatment for anxiety. He used that experience at McLean Hospital in Cambridge, Massachusetts, where he worked with children and adolescents diagnosed with anxiety and obsessive compulsive disorders in an intensive outpatient clinic. Dr. Myers has experience in working with adolescents and young adults with comorbid anxiety and substance use disorders. and adopts a harm reduction approach when appropriate. Hence the Anxiety Guy. Dr. Myers is the Director of Adolescent Services at Center for Motivation and Change, CMC. If that sounds familiar, it's because they are the team of psychologists who authored the book I talk about in many episodes called Beyond Addiction, How Science and Kindness Help People Change and the companion workbook by the same name. Both of which you can find links to in the show notes for today's episode. It is the one book I recommend to everyone. I wanted to talk with Jerrell about a few things, including a good understanding of anxiety, what it is and why so many young people struggle with it today. And I also wanted to understand some of the effective approaches parents can take when their child has anxiety and is misusing substances. One of the things I loved most about this conversation. Is Jarrell's compassion for parents and how he so calmly and confidently shares insider information that he has from working for so long with adolescents. I know you want to get into it. So take a listen to an enlightening discussion with Dr. Jarrell Myers from Center for Motivation and Change in New York. Enjoy. Enjoy. Dr. Jarrell Myers, I'm so happy to have you here because I can't figure out how we don't know each other yet, but this is at least a great place to start. So welcome to HopeStream.

Jarrell: 4:37

I know. Thank you so much for having me. I know it's, it's so odd but I'm really happy to be here. Really happy, excited to have this conversation with you.

Brenda: 4:47

Yes. Yes. We, we love CMC and the foundation and all the work you do, and we just try to amplify. Whatever you guys come out with, we try to get it out there to as many parents as possible. Why don't you just give us a quick background of how, how in the world did you end up becoming a psychologist who works with adolescents? Because they are a tricky bunch. So I would love to get that backstory.

Jarrell: 5:11

I got into psychology. I have to blame my mom for this because I went to undergrad and had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do. And she suggested, you know, major in psychology. It's, it's a type of degree where you'll be able to branch out into doing anything. And I decided to just follow along and do that. And it wasn't until my junior year where I took this class called abnormal psychology where it. Finally felt like it clicked for me. Like this is, this is exciting. This feels like something that I want to do. And so pursued a degree in clinical psychology at Fairleigh Dickinson university in, uh, Teaneck, New Jersey. And have been practicing and licensed since 2015. Initially, when I got into grad school, I thought that I was only going to work with adults and that was it. Like, I was only interested in working with adults. I took a, uh, an opportunity with New York University, their child study center, where they were, uh, conducting a, uh, Uh, like summer program for kids with OCD and decided, let me give it a try. Let's see what it's like. And I did it and fell in love with working with kids and adolescents and fell in love with anxiety work. So that became my thing really worked towards getting more and more experiences doing that. And so I think that's what I became known for. I was the anxiety and OCD guy. My first job out of grad school was in Massachusetts. So I was primarily working with children, adolescents who are struggling with pretty significant anxiety disorders. And we were working on, Helping them to overcome their anxiety, push past it, do the things that they were really important to them as well as helping their families to feel supported, because that's something that oftentimes gets neglected. And one of the things that was coming up where was that there were a ton of kids who could have come into the system that we were in. However, the problem was that they were using substances. And one of the rule outs for the program was that you couldn't be using substances. And it makes sense because. Based on the research, you don't get the full value of treatment if you are continuing to use something that if it helps you to cope with the anxiety. So for the program, they wanted to ensure that people who were coming in were fully ready and able to kind of address the anxiety and the OCD without any interference from anything else. So they really strongly suggested that you go ahead and address your, your, your substance use issues. Have about six weeks of sleep. Of sobriety, and then you can come back to us and, uh, address anxiety. Which I think theoretically makes sense, but in the real world for a lot of these kids, they're using as a means of coping with whatever's going on internally for them. So it felt to me as if what we're asking them to do is get rid of this as a coping skill, uh, maybe have a coping skill for managing anxiety until you can come back To us and we can help you with your anxiety. So I started to explore in my own private practice there, how to treat people with both anxiety and substance use issues. I had no training in substance use treatment. I, Kind of did some work in the past, but it was all sort of brand new to me. So I was trying different things out and eventually decided that I wanted to learn how to do substance use treatment in a really effective way. And stumbled upon CMC and wanted to kind of move back, uh, to home, to the New York tri state area. And so decided that CMC would be a good fit with, for me. And so I've been there. Since 2019, I'm working on just kind of learning substance use treatment, learning the invitation to change. And then because of my, in my continued interest in wanting to work with adolescents, we started, uh, an adolescent program at CMC focused on helping adolescents and their families who may be struggling with anxiety, depression, trauma, as well as a substance use disorder using the ITC In that framework to kind of help the kids develop a means of thinking through how they want to cope with things and then giving parents a toolbox that they need to. Manage their adolescent and help them help motivate them to work towards the goals and values that are important to them.

Brenda: 9:49

Amazing. Amazing. I love that. It's so true when you talk about the program requiring, you know, abstinence or sobriety before getting the treatment. And yes, in a perfect world, that would be. Amazing. But it's so difficult to do. So it's a really interesting model. And I'm curious if we could just do a little sidebar on anxiety because we see this in our community with I would say the majority of our kids, if not a significant majority. What is driving this level of anxiety in our young people today? Because it's so prevalent and my kids didn't have it. So I didn't ever see that. So I'm always curious, especially from, from the anxiety guy, I want to know like what's going on.

Jarrell: 10:43

Fear is a common human experience. It is as natural as you breathing air, right? And part of the reason why we as humans have developed fear as, uh, as one of our natural emotions is because it has helped us to survive. So it's a really, really helpful tool for survival overall. The issue is that as we kind of developed as a species, we developed, uh, this Front part of our brain called the prefrontal cortex, which has taken our brains from acting in an analog manner, meaning things just kind of switching on and off to now. Like there's so many different ways in which we can go. We're thinking more abstractly. We organize we plan like all of that stuff. And so even though the back part of our brain, that the amygdala is responsible for the fair response, even though the prefrontal cortex is there and it, it's the evolved part, that amygdala still operates in that analog way on and off. Right. And so if there's something out there that is dangerous, that's It's going to respond appropriately, right? So if you're in Manhattan, you're trying to cross the street and there's a taxi barreling towards you, your anxiety is going to respond, or your fear, excuse me, is going to respond appropriately. It's going to try to get you out of that situation as much, as quickly as possible by making you feel bad, right? It makes you feel uncomfortable. The issue is that there are now non dangerous things that we begin to think about or plan for or explore that activate the amygdala in the exact same way. So now, instead of us just responding to things that make us. Fearful because it's a dangerous situation. We're also responding to things that we may be motivated to do. So I, I feel nervous about a test. I'm motivated to study for that test because I, I feel a connection to doing well or performing well. Or I have a speech that I have to give. And so I feel a little bit nervous about that because I want to make sure that I do the absolute best that I can. There's nothing wrong with that, right? That performance anxiety of source. Once it is. Effectively managed actually is helpful in us doing well, but performing an act pretty well. The problem is, is when that fear becomes anxiety. So fear becomes anxiety. When experience fear over and over and over again, it becomes what we call a mood state, right? So instead of that emotion, just us experiencing it for about. 45 to 90 seconds or so, we begin to experience it for much longer. So that, that one singular emotion becomes how we feel over an extended period of time and that fear becomes linked or that anxiety becomes linked with. The behavior that we typically engage in that might bring about that level of arousal. In addition to any other cues that are associated with it as well. So, uh, let's say for instance, you have a kid who had a bad experience at school. Maybe they did something that they felt embarrassed about and they didn't make the decision that the next day I'm not going to go to school because I'm worried about. What other kids may say, or they may make fun of me or people may be judging me. They've gone from that fear of embarrassment to now missing several days of school, because they're worried about what could happen in addition to the fact that they've missed so many days of school. Now it's starting to stand out, right? People are, people might notice. So they've developed this fear state, this anxiety around attending school. And you pretty quickly find yourself in a space where We're now their school avoid it because they're concerned or worried about what might happen if they go there and it feels uncomfortable for them to do that. So anxiety grows pretty quickly and it gets attached to as many things as, as possible because the goal still is to protect ourselves, right? We're still operating in that analog way of on or off. So when that fire alarm goes off and we hear it in our, inside our bodies, we're reacting as if. Uh, that taxi cab is charging towards us or the line is, is trying to eat us or, or whatever other dangerous situation we might be in, as opposed to, this is something that happens and I can learn to manage it or learn to deal with it. So when we're treating anxiety, what we focus on is helping people to face the things that anxiety is telling them or OCD is telling them that they cannot do. Right? I want to help you get past that fear, but by proving anxiety or OCD, right or wrong. Right? And we do so in a stepwise fashion. So I'm not going to throw you in the deep end of the pool and hope that you can swim. We build up your stamina. We build up your tolerance of anxiety so that over time, what you begin to learn for experientially is Is that even when I'm feeling uncomfortable, the emotion doesn't have to be a command. Ultimately, it can be a suggestion about how I can interpret the situation, but it doesn't necessarily need to be something that I follow through on. So I liken it to the fact that if you, if you like roller coasters, it's You may notice that when you're standing in line for a roller coaster, you feel some sort of arousal. Your body may feel excited about going on the roller coaster. You can't wait. You're hearing all the screams. You're seeing that first drop. It all seems really exciting. If you interpret that a different way, you might see it as anxiety, right? But that excitement, anxiety, or that excitement and fear isn't going to. deter you from sitting in that seat and buckling in and getting ready for the ride. It's a suggestion though that like you might be feeling something here and it might be indicative that something may happen. But ultimately, if you're motivated to get on the ride, you're going to get on the ride. Very similarly, we can acknowledge that I may be feeling something about attending school right now because I'm worried about feeling embarrassed about it. And It doesn't have to get in the way of me actually doing that. This emotion is just a suggestion. It's not a command.

Brenda: 16:54

That's a really great, I've never really had anybody break down anxiety for me. So that's incredibly helpful. And we do see a lot of that, that the school refusal for I'm sure so many reasons, school has gotten very complicated since I was, since the days I was in school. And when, obviously when you have it. Anxiety like that and, and our kids are smart. They find substances and substances for a while do a pretty good job of easing that anxiety or that fear. And so with the invitation to change, you know, we talk a lot about allowing natural consequences. And I, what I hear from parents and I experienced this as well is there can be a period of time. So my kid has, let's say it's anxiety or maybe they're using substances for some other reason, which there's lots of reasons that they do and it's working for them, right? It's like, now they can sleep, now they can go to school, whatever. And they're not really having that many negative consequences at first because they're not excessively. They're experimenting here and there. And so there aren't a lot of natural consequences. And the parents are like, well, what am I, what do I do? Like, am I just going to sit here and wait and wait and wait? What do you see working in that space or talk to us about that? Cause it's such a frustrating experience. I always felt like my son had nine lives. Like Like seriously, how did you get out of that situation without any real consequences, right? And there, and he wasn't using enough to really impact his brain too much in the beginning. Help us out.

Jarrell: 18:39

Help us out. Yeah, it's tough. It's so tough. I think because you're. As a parent, you're managing or you're dealing with a stage in life that is extremely challenging. So you've got this individual who has seen the world a certain way or has experienced the world a certain way for a period of time, right? Throughout their childhood, I mean, they've been growing, they've been changing, but things kind of feel the same. And then all of a sudden their body goes on an all out assault against them and everything feels uncomfortable. Everything changes. The way that they're thinking about things changes. Their eyes have been opened to things that they may never have thought about before and may not never have explored before. And so they're in this stage of just complete change that What they were never warned about that they have no experience of, and they're trying to deal with it as best as possible. In addition to that, they're in this stage where they're trying to figure out how do I explore the world on my own, but then at the same time, I still have to depend on my parents, right? So the relationship with parents as well is pretty challenging in and of itself. So you're dealing with sort of just. This person who is, for lack of a better term, has just gone completely wild because they don't know what to do and they don't know how to manage it. They don't know what's, what's going on. Dealing with that is hard enough in and of itself. Add into that, that they may be experiencing some anxiety or some fear about things that they may be feeling sad or down or depressed about things that they may have experienced some sort of traumatic event and that is affecting them as well. Right? And. You add that into the pot and I mean, you're talking about someone who's feeling incredibly uncomfortable and is just looking for a solution to feel better. And there's nothing that's out there. They don't know how to talk about it. They may not have the words for it. And they don't necessarily want to talk to you about it because there's, there's fear and anxiety about what that may be like. So they're, they're really struggling internally with what it must be like to, to, Live in this world and live in this body and then still interact socially and be friends with people and all of that stuff So it's a really challenging period of life It makes sense then that what they're looking for is an escape from that feeling I think anybody would be looking for an escape, right? We're looking for a way that we can feel better It's it's it's How we are as humans in general, we try to escape things that feel painful to us. So the moment that we can, we'll do that thing. I think about the fact that if I have a headache right now, I can end this conversation, run out into the bathroom, grab an Advil from, from the, the, the counter and, and take a swig of water with that. And I know in a few minutes, I'll be feeling better. And that is my go to because it has worked for me before, it has continued to work for me. I did it since I was a child, no problem, no issue with it. Very similarly, substances provide an exceptionally strong short term relief from whatever we may be experiencing internally. It helps to numb a lot of what we may be experiencing in the short term. And for kids. What more could you ask for right? I don't know any skills. I don't know how to talk about this But this one thing that I do helps me to feel better. So I might as well do it, right? It's also a period of time where kids are experimenting So they're trying different things out including substances from time to time or alcohol And so they may sometimes just happen upon the fact that this is something that helps them to feel better So it's a really challenging place to be To be because the learning that is occurring for a lot of these adolescents is if I want to feel better, I can just take this, I can just drink this, I can just smoke this, and I'll feel better. I'll feel a lot better. It also helps me to connect with my peers because they're doing it. So if I just do that, I'll feel better about connecting with them as well. So there are a lot of reinforcers that are present for using a substance for an adolescent. So ultimately it would make a lot of sense that they would be using or they would try out use as a means of coping with what they feel internally. What we have to do is help them break down that relationship. Now that's really hard for us because again, It's really reinforcing to use the relationship that we have with our teams right now, maybe challenged because of what they're going through. So communication may look very different how open and vulnerable they, they may be, may change as well. So there's a lot that's just happening and going on. I think the most important tool that we have, or one of the most important tools that we have as parents is us being able to maintain the relationship that we have. With our teens, right? And again, that is going to change after age 10. It's going to look very, very different as they're entering preteen and teen and adolescence. But figuring out how to maintain that relationship. leaves the door open so that communication can remain clear and there can be real conversations about what's going on. It helps us to be more aware of what's going on with them because they're sharing more of what's going on with them and we can therefore reinforce the type of things that we want to reinforce. Again, substances do a really good job of Uh, numbing out and taking away the pain that we may be experiencing. And so by them using what they're able to see is, Hey, I feel better by using. And they make that association that the world may not be reinforcing for me right now, but substances are really reinforcing for me right now. What we want to be able to do is ultimately show them. Yeah, the world can still be reinforcing and there can still be reinforcing things in our relationship. We can still hang out. We can talk, we can explore things. We can do whatever needs to be done. And by doing that, that can still be, that can still feel pretty good for you. Maybe not as good in the moment as substances are, but ultimately they're leading you towards the things that are important to you. And that's the other thing. It's really important to have a sense of that's going to come from the communication, the relationship, the goals and values that that adolescent may have. Now, they're going to be figuring things out. They're not going to have all the answers at this point in time. But one question that I like to ask when I'm doing, let's say an intake evaluation with an adolescent is what do you want to do when you grow up? Or what have you thought about doing after high school? Right? As a means of just kind of exploring with them what their interests are, or what feels like, what they feel connected to, or, or sharing their pride in the things that they've accomplished, or what they've done. One, that kind of changes the relationship that we have together, because their parents may have said to them, you're coming in because you need to talk to Jarrell about drugs. And that's not what I want. And if they thought that that was, What they were coming in for, they're not talking to me. We're not having a conversation. So being able to change the, the, the situation a bit, I think helps them to, to feel more at ease and more, more comfortable about it. But then past that, it helps you to better understand the things that are important to them. And the things that are important to them. Are I think the pathway to get them back on course, if they've fallen off course, or if I'm concerned about them falling off course. So if a kid comes to me and says I want to be an astronaut And me being intelligent is really important to me me providing for myself and maybe my future family is really important to me me doing well Me achieving good grades like those things are important to me Then as reinforcing as substances may be, they may be leading you off track of those things. So let's figure out for you how to get you back on track. Now, it may not look the way I want it to initially, but if we are able to work together to try to figure out how to get them back on track, we're much closer to having them, one, feel motivated to do that, and two, actually achieve the thing that they want to achieve. I apologize for the really, really, really long answer, but I think that's, that's sort of what it is. I think that's sort of what it is. It's, it's, it's hard. It's complicated. There's so many different pieces that are attached to it. I wish I had like the magic pill, just say, Hey, your parents do this and everything works out. And unfortunately that's, it's just not the case.

Brenda: 27:31

Hi, I'm taking a quick break to let you know some exciting news. There are now two private online communities for supporting you through this experience with your child or children. The stream community for those who identify as moms and the woods for guys who identify as dads. Of course, this includes step parents and anyone who is caring for a young person who struggles with substance use and mental health. The stream and the woods exist completely outside of all social media, so you never have to worry about confidentiality. And they're also ad free. So when you're there, you'll be able to focus on learning the latest evidence based approaches to helping people change their relationship with drugs and alcohol. In both communities, we have a positive focus without triggering content or conversations, and we help you learn to be an active participant in helping your child move towards healthier choices. You'll also experience the relief of just being able to be real. Connect with other parents who know fully what you're going through and have battle tested mentors alongside. You can check out both The Stream and The Woods for free before committing, so there's no risk. Go to hopestreamcommunity. org to get all the details and become a member. Okay, let's get back to the show. There's also a tendency to, especially in younger adolescents, to want to rescue them because, and I hear this all the time and I was guilty of this as well, I don't want them to get in trouble. I mean, maybe a little bit of trouble, maybe like school trouble would be okay, but I don't want him to get in big trouble. Like, I don't want the police showing up. Because that might go on their record and then we're destroying any hopes of a future for them. And that's very real also. And how do you think about that when you're working with families with young kids?

Jarrell: 29:36

I think as parents, our job is to be, as much as we may be reactive, our job is to be proactive, especially when it comes to, to our kids. Kind of using substances, what happens is we get caught off guard or caught by surprise by a lot of this stuff and our own anxiety raises, our own fear raises, our own fire alarm goes off. And when that happens, we tend to be reactive in the moment, right? So I'm going to do whatever I can do to fix this. I need to have this fixed so that. My kid is back on track so that their life is not in danger so that they can achieve the things that I hope they're able to achieve for themselves or that they're able to do whatever they want to do. Uninterrupted by anything that could negatively influence them in any way, shape, or form, which I think is totally understandable. Here's the thing. As I just said, there is no quick fix. There's nothing that you're going to do or to say, or to have happen. That is going to have the impact that you're hoping for it to have. Immediately, what's going to work is consistency over time. What's going to work is, is being proactive in situations. And instead of reacting, having your, having your response ready, having your behaviors ready, having things ready to go for yourself. So that when you come upon those situations, you know how to deal with it. Now, me sitting here saying this to you, saying this to the audience, Sounds super easy and I know that there's someone who's yelling back at me right now saying that sounds great But I don't have time for that. It sounds great, but I don't know what to expect And you're right, you're absolutely right. Here's the thing. If we're going back to the idea of fostering and maintaining the relationship, then what we want to ensure that we're doing is reinforcing the things that we want to see, right? I want to see my kid do well in school. I want to see my kid interacting with me. Well, I want to see my kid interacting with their siblings. Well, Right? Substances may come on board and they may be part of the picture. And that, that is difficult to deal with. But the more that we have those open communications, the more that we can actually communicate about substances and about why they're there and about what they're doing there. And the more that we can actually create a plan of action that both me and my team can engage in so that I'm supportive. Supporting them in helping them achieve what they want to achieve. So you spoke about the fact that, you know, I may be willing for certain things to happen and not be willing for certain things to happen. And it makes sense, right? Each family, each parent is going to be thinking differently about what they're able to tolerate. But the. Important thing is being able to identify what you're going to tolerate or what you can tolerate. What are the upper limits of your boundary? What are the lower limits of your boundary, right? Where where have you decided that if this happens, I absolutely have to step in versus if this happens I'm just going to allow for natural consequences to occur whatever, you know You fail in that class you fail that class that falls on you and now you have to go to summer school That's your fault. That's not my fault. Right? So being able to be proactive here and thinking about where your boundaries are being able to be proactive about what you're going to communicate to your kid in advance, right? So when these situations are coming up as you're hearing about them before you're immediately reacting to the kid and say, hey, you need to be or you should be or whatever the case may be, take a step back. Think about What is it that I'm hoping to have happen here? If it is that I want this kid to get back on track, what are the specific things that I need to have happen? Well, they need to be attending classes regularly. They need to be doing their homework or they need to be studying in a study hall period, or maybe they need a tutor, right? Once you have developed or thought about what you need to have happen, you can then communicate that to the adolescent, right? To your kid. Hey, look, this is the issue that I see going on. I really want things to change for you. Right? So these are things that I would like to see happen. And if those things don't happen, you can expect X, Y, and Z. In that way, you are not playing the sheriff. You're not the law. You're not the police officer. You're not, you're not responsible for anything anymore. You've taken now this step back. You've set out what, what can be expected. You've taken the step back. It's up to that kid to decide what happens next. Right, but you've established for yourself which natural consequences you're allowed, you're allowing to occur, where you're going to set the limits, where maybe you're perhaps going to step away but you've already established that for yourself. So you don't have to think about it when that kid comes yelling, screaming about whatever may be going on, or when they're acting aloof about whatever may be happening, you are already established what's going to occur. So you don't have to necessarily engage. The other piece of this that we haven't spoken about as yet is as parents, as helpers, we oftentimes only think about who we're trying to help. We don't think about ourselves, right? I'll think about me afterwards. I got to make sure that this kid gets back on track. If that is the way that you're operating, there's no way that you're going to be effective in being proactive because you're just going to be reactive, right? If you're just driving on fumes. Then you don't have the resources to keep going, right? You're gonna slow down and you're gonna stop at some point in time. You're gonna burn out, right? Yeah. Because on top of being a parent, You still are an employer or employee. You still are a partner to someone. You still are a sibling to other people. If you have siblings, you're still a child to someone. If your parents are still there, you're still friends to other people, right? You play all these different roles as well. And just because you're going through one thing doesn't mean that all those other roles fall by the wayside. You're still an important piece to other people's lives. So, If you are unable to take care of yourself, you're not going to be effective in being proactive or communicating or maintaining the relationship. Your focus is going to go to the alarm bell that you're experiencing internally that's going off and you're just going to be reacted to it. That doesn't necessarily mean that you need to take a spa day every week. I mean, if you can afford it and you have the time for it, go forth, do it, have fun with that. I would, I would love your timetable. Please share that with me. I would love that. But it does mean that you have to be thoughtful about when are times where I have to just kind of take a step back and I got to do something with my partner or do something for myself. When are times where I'm making the decision, I'm going to take a step back and like, I'm going to take an extra long bath today. Or today's a day where I'm just going to go out for a walk for 10 minutes by myself, maybe with the family pet and that's it. I'm just going to focus on me. But when are times that I'm actually going to focus on taking care of myself. If you can pinpoint those times and be selfish about that, healthily selfish about that, then I think what ultimately happens is you have more resources, you have more space to kind of be proactive, to communicate effectively, to continue to build on the relationship. And when that alarm bell goes off for you, where you're. Feeling that fear or that anxiety, you can also look at it as a suggestion, right? You're feeling the urge in the moment to act as if it is a command to fix things in this moment But hearing this and knowing the ITC, you know, there's nothing that's gonna fix it in the moment So if I'm just reacting to the alarm bells that are going off internally, I'm not actually being effective I don't know that I'm actually changing things Whereas if I can hear the alarm bells and still stick to whatever plan I have in place That's going to be most effective for me, because that's when I'm going to do my best communication, my best reinforcement, and allow for the reduction of other behaviors that I don't want to see in the most effective way possible.

Brenda: 37:38

I think it's confusing as a parent if you, And maybe some people know like, I have an anxious kid. I hear that all the time. Well, I have an anxious kid. They've been anxious since they came out of my womb. And then other ones are like, yeah, they're kind of acting different lately and kind of looks like they're anxious. So is this something like, how would a parent start to go about as they're assessing what their child's doing? Maybe they know there's some experimentation going on with some substances and they're seeing some different behavior, like what should they be looking for and what would you say they should do if they're anxious? If they're like, yeah, I think we have a problem here.

Jarrell: 38:13

Yeah, absolutely. So kids have just like kids, adolescent, just have a few jobs, right? The few things that they're responsible for it is being able to get along with others, uh, the way shape or form being able to have some purpose. And for them at this age, it's pretty straightforward. Go to school. And then be able to show that they have interest in other things, other activities, right? I think all their other jobs fall under those three categories. So for me, as long as they are able to function pretty effectively, Over time, and you're looking at these, those three categories, it feels like everything is kind of going okay, then we can stick with the plan. We may not necessarily need help. There may be specific things that we need to address, but it doesn't necessarily mean that we need to go out seeking out a jarrell or, or anyone else. Right. However, if we are seeing deficits in those areas, to me it's an indicator that things are off course or things are off balance. And especially if we're seeing that over an extended period of time, right? Which for kids can be like, you know, a few weeks a month then I think that's an indicator that hey, we need to do something about this right? Again Kids are gonna feel concerned, let's say, about having a conversation with their parents when it comes to substances. I'm not saying every single kid is, but many might be, right? Because there may be embarrassment about it. They may be unsure about how you may feel about it. They may think that you have certain judgments about it. Maybe they've overheard you say something and now they're worried about talking to you about it. And so it may feel difficult for them to share in that conversation with you. However, Again, this is where being really proactive comes into play. A lot of times the conversations, once substance use comes into play, the conversations shift to only being about substance use all the time. Right? So how is it interfering with school? How is it interfering with you, with your extracurricular activities? How, how is it interfering with your emotional functioning when you're in this house? Right? And yet. There's still a whole human there. There's still someone who loves certain things, who engages in certain things. It's still the kid that, you know, it's just, again, they're in this body that is not operating the way that they've been accustomed to operating. So they're trying to figure things out. Right. And so if we're able to shift conversations to stop just being about substance use, but about being the person that being about the person as a whole, I think that opens up. Uh, an adolescent to feel as if I can be more vulnerable with you, like I can actually have a conversation with you because it doesn't feel as if you're just judging me about this or that, but that like I can come to you and talk to you about anything, you know what I mean? And it doesn't necessarily mean that you are going, they are going to talk to them, to their parents about anything, but there's much more of a likelihood that that could or would happen. So you just had a drop in grades if a kid feels if I'm gonna come to them and school them about it Well, there's no real communication about that But if it feels as if we can have a conversation about what's going on or what happened or what changed for them And have it be a real Honest conversation. Well, that changes things significantly because I can be made more aware of what may be coming up or what may be happening or things that are kind of on the horizon that I need to be looking out for. It also gives us the opportunity to process and think through how we deal with whatever may be coming up. So if the kid is saying, yeah, I've been, you know, smoking three, four times, uh, a week because, you know, my friends are doing it. And it kind of helps me to feel better when I'm in algebra class. Fantastic. Right? I don't, I don't necessarily want you smoking all the time. I'd rather you not do that. But if I at least know that it's helping you to feel more comfortable in algebra class, then we can targets. There's something about algebra class that we need to fix here or something that needs to change so that you can feel more comfortable in algebra class, right? I can have a conversation with the teacher, but it, or, or, uh, we can talk about what we're doing. Some skills that you can use, right? Some things that you can use to calm yourself down in that or. Whatever else may be there, but it opens up sort of this huge pathway to a bunch of different solutions, just from having that communication present. So I can be made more aware if that communication is open, if the relationship feels pretty good. If it feels as if we can, we can be vulnerable with each other and have honest conversations. I think the things to look out for, as I said earlier, are when functioning feels off. So if we've gone from a kid who is. You know, doing X and now all of a sudden it seems like Y or Z is creeping into the picture. That's an indicator that we may need to have a conversation about something, that something's going on that I'm noticing. And the way in which I might have that conversation is, Hey noticing that this is coming up. What do you think about that? What's your perception of it? Right. But leaving it, leaving it sort of in their hands to process through and talk about they can give their perspective that doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to look at it in a very, very honest and genuine way all the time. Because sometimes, again, they're concerned about that worry and that judgment from you as a parent, but it does mean that we can have that conversation, that we are allowed to have that conversation. There's space for it. And we can be. We can be detectives we can explore what's actually happening and what's going on And again, I think the reason why I put so much emphasis on On that relationship is because I think that's at the core of what helps with these types of situations I can't guarantee that everything is going to be fixed. I can't guarantee that by you doing this that you're going to make everything better and put that kid right back on track or the track that they You anticipated that they would be on but I can guarantee is that If that relationship is maintained, if it's built, if there's open communication, if it feels as if it's a, a warm homey place for them, then you're increasing the likelihood that. You can change things or that things can change for them. You're increasing the likelihood that motivation shifts for them. You're increasing the likelihood that they'll continue communicating with you. So at least you're in the know and not on the outside, just responding to how you're feeling internally. Right. Yeah. So it, it doesn't necessarily fix everything, but it puts you in a much better position that you can be helpful. And ultimately I think that's all we want.

Brenda: 44:46

Yeah, it's so, it's so true. Like you can only stack the odds in your favor. You can't, you can't create a hundred percent odds, but you can absolutely stack them in your favor by, by doing some of these things. And you just nailed it when you, when you talked about how we tend to zoom into the substance use and we forget there's a whole, like we totally forget about that kid that we've known for 16 years or whatever it is. It's like, all we do is we focus on the substance use. And that's gotta feel terrible to them. Cause they're probably like, well, wait a minute. Like I still do this. And I, you know, so that's, that's a good reminder. And so, so watching for those shifts over time, And if you are seeing that and I love, I think you said, I even wrote it down instead of going to them, like, I know you've been smoking pot. You need to get back on, you know, you said, well, what do you think about that? So much more respectful. And I am always shocked how. If you can have the presence of mind as you're, as the parent to ask a question like that and then listen, they really do talk, which leads me to want to ask, I would love to be a fly on your wall in your office or on your little zoom window when you're talking with adolescents, or can you give us like The Jarrell secret sauce statement or question or like, how do you talk with them so that they talk back to you? Because I imagine there's, you probably have a little bit of like a cadence in some, some words or some phrases that you use that we could maybe steal from you. We don't want to make you give up your trade secrets, but I don't

Jarrell: 46:33

know that I have just one phrase that I use, but I think that what I try to establish over time is that this is a space where you can talk about any and everything, right? And my job is not to tell you what to do. My job is not to, to give you the answer to anything, but that we're on the same team and we can work together on figuring out whatever we need to figure out right now, your relationship with them as a parent is going to be completely different, right? It's going to look different. And they, they're accustomed to a certain type of communication, a certain type of relationship with you. So it's very different. But I think if you can help to establish a place where it feels as if we can really talk about anything and there really is no judgment, that's as helpful as you can be. So, Instead of it just being like one specific phrase or one term, I think it's about being consistent in how you're asking about things or how you're exploring things with them. Right. I'm very big on parents and people in general having their own language around things. Cause I speak Jor El. I've developed Jarrell really, really well, but I haven't necessarily developed Megan or Brenda or Tim or John. I don't know how to talk like them. And so I can tell you what to say, but it's not necessarily going to sound the way that I would. Tim needs it to sound or that Brenda needs it to sound ultimately what it's going to sound like is Jor El in a Brenda accent Jor El in a Tim accent, right? Yes We don't want that what we want because we don't want that because kids adolescents are Exceptional on picking up and when something is not sincere or genuine And they call it out, right? They have no filter about that. So we want to make sure things are as genuine as possible. What I try to do when I'm having a conversation about things that, that may be difficult is I'll say, Hey, listen, let's talk about this. I'm willing to talk about it as much as you're willing to talk about it. I just want to listen for a little bit. I want to gather as much information as possible. So I'm going to be asking you a bunch of questions about it. When you feel like we're done, like you don't want to talk about it anymore. We can, we can stop there. Right. But I just want to understand things better. And I think that's the helpful term by setting up that framework of, I just want to understand. I think it helps them to feel as if. Oh, you actually are listening to me. Oh, you genuinely do want to know what my experience is. You're not just going to tell me what to do or tell me how I should be acting, but instead you want to understand me better. A lot of times by establishing that what ultimately happens is, That kids get to process a lot of stuff that's banging around in the echo chamber of their mind pretty effectively because oftentimes they're not doing that. They don't have the opportunity to do that. Right. So I think by setting this framework of, I'm trying to listen, or I just want to hear you, I'm just listening to you and I'm trying to understand. I think that opens up much more communication because it says to the kid, I actually am putting all my attention on you. I want you to tell me what's going on for you. I want you to share as much as you can with me. Now, if you have an established relationship where there's been a lot of shouting and screaming. You're going to say that the first 10 to 20 times, and it's not going to land at all, right? What you're doing is you're trying to establish a brand new way of communicating. And so it's going to take time to do that. Right. The example I use, which sounds like it's tangential, but I promise it is on track is a kid in the candy store, right? If you go into a candy store with a kid and they start yelling and screaming, cause they want, you know, a Twix bar, a Milky way or whatever they like. And you buy it for them. What have they learned? If I yell and scream loud enough, I'm going to get the thing that I want. If I want to break them out of that, then I have to be really consistent with every single time we go into the candy store, you are not getting it right. Whether you yell or scream or whatever the case may be, I'm tolerating that. That's going to happen and you're not going to get this thing, right? And it's not until they begin, the child begins to realize, Hey, this is not working anymore. I need to try something different. That's when they're going to try something different. Very similarly, their assumption, the kid's assumption, the adolescent's assumption is, The way that we've been communicating is a norm. So you doing something different is you just trying to work some magic over me to try something a little different, but it's coming from a disingenuous place. It's not coming from a real place. It's the consistency over time that indicates to them, Oh, okay. So you really do want to listen to me. Maybe I can share a little bit with you. So you need to have the expectation that this is not going to work. Immediately that is not going to work initially that it's only going to work after you are consistent with it over time You're gonna get shut down a whole lot. You're just gonna have to again This is where the taking care of yourself comes into play. You're just gonna have to suck it up and be like, alright This is a red light. I'm willing to take that. It's a red light for right now I'm just keeping my out for that green light and when you do get that green light really just lean into being that Objective listener, the person who's just trying to gather as much information as possible. That's the type of thing I think that fosters them being able to talk back to you

Brenda: 52:14

Totally. And, and you really do, if you, if you say, I just want to understand what's going on, or I just want to understand this better, then you have to actually listen. Like you can't just say that and then check your phone and then you're zooming out over here and they're talking and you're not present because that's going to, you know, erode the trust that you just, that little teeny millimeter of trust that you just built with them. So make sure you're actually listening. And, and also I'm so glad that you said that about it. It's not going to work the first time, because I think that is the expectation like, Oh, I've learned all these tools. This is amazing. It makes sense. I try it. And I get the finger, or I get the kick of, you know, he kicked a hole in the wall or slammed the door in my face. And so I'm so glad you said that, especially if you have, and I see this quite a bit, if, if you've had a very authoritarian sort of parenting style where parents tell the kids what to do, and there is no, none of this sort of, Hey, I want to understand you. It's always been like, do this, do this, do this. This is going to freak your kid out. They're going to be like, what is going on? Something is definitely up with this. So just know that that is going to take time. Well before we wrap up, I know I need to let you go. What do you think parents mostly get wrong about all of this? Like when we're seeing our kids struggle, they're misusing substances, they're using them in the first place and misusing them, using them in a very unhealthy way. What do you think we're? We basically just get wrong.

Jarrell: 53:51

I appreciate you phrasing the question like that. And I want to, to point out that there's still has yet to be a kid that comes with a manual, right? No kid is coming with a manual. There's no kid out there who you just automatically know how to manage and to, you know, you know what you need to do. You could have three kids and you're talking about three completely different personalities, three completely different needs. So even if you figured out how to do things with your first kid. The other two may pull on different muscles for you that you weren't expecting. Right? So I don't necessarily know that it's, that we are doing something wrong. It's more so that we're trying to build a house without having the necessary skills to do so. I think for a lot of parents, we lean into that again, that internal fire alarm that goes off. Right. And I just, I, I just have to do this. I have to fix it. And it makes sense that we operate in that way, because for the first, however many years of life, I could pick you up and put you in a different place and you're no longer in danger. Or if you said you're not going to school, that's fine. I'm picking you up and putting you in the car and we're going to drive to school. So there, I don't have to worry about that. That's not that big of a deal. Once they hit adolescence. I'm, I'm not able to pick them up anymore. I can't do the same tools and incorporate the same tools and skills that I have been using. Ultimately, I now have to try something out that's different. And as the adolescents are going through their process, I'm now trying to figure out for myself as a parent, how do I now parent this adolescent? Like what does it mean for me to. To try to discipline them appropriately and still communicate with them appropriately and deal with like everything that these hormones are throwing at them, right? So, so I don't know that it's necessarily that we're doing something wrong. It's that we're, we're, we're continuing to figure things out and we just haven't figured it out yet. And especially when substances are introduced into the picture, I want to take you away from this thing as quickly as possible. Cause I don't want you to deal with it. I have the wisdom and knowledge around how it can affect your life long term, you can't see that yet, but I want to fix things for you. You're, you're no longer playing the role as a fixed things parent. What you're playing the role now of is. I'm helping this soon to be adult figure out how to operate in the world, right, which means that I've got to kind of take a step back and reassess what it means for me to play to be playing this role, right? If I'm going to be as effective as I want to be as a parent, what it means. Uh, especially when my, my adolescent is using a substance is it means that I've got to be their teammate. I still get to be their parent. We still have the structure and the rules that are set, the boundaries that are set. All of those things are still present, but as it relates to them, figuring out the world. I'm now their teammate. And as a teammate, I want to be as supportive as possible, which means that I cannot just react to how I'm feeling. If I want the betterment of the team, it means that I got to be thoughtful about my teammate and how my teammate is going to react. And what's going to happen for my teammate and try to set up. A situation in which they're going to prosper as best as possible, knowing that I don't have control over everything, but that I can do everything in my power to kind of set things up for them. So I'm gonna, and I, I apologize that I keep landing on these areas, but I got to communicate. I've got to build a relationship. I've got to reinforce the things that I want to see. And I've also got to take care of myself. Because those are going to be the keys to helping them kind of move forward. And the more that they're communicating with me, the more that I get to understand about what's going on with them, about why they're doing what they're doing, about what, you know, whatever may be happening for them. And we can think through different ways of helping them achieve whatever they want to achieve. Right? So I don't want us to think about. it as what have I been doing wrong? I think I want us to think about it more so as what do I need to adjust to help my teammate achieve what I want them to achieve.

Brenda: 58:04

I love that. That's a perfect, perfect pinpoint to just nail it. I think that's a great way to think about it because it does feel bad to think like, Oh, I've been doing this wrong. That sucks. But to think, you know, I just need to adjust my strategy for my team. I love that. So. Awesome. So great to have you here. We could talk for days, but I will let you go because I know you are so busy, but can't thank you enough for joining us for this. And if you are in the New York area, you are lucky because you could actually go and call CMC and say, we need Gerald. So hook us up and we might have to do part two cause I have like 11 more questions I didn't even get to ask you.

Jarrell: 58:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like there are a ton, there's a ton more information that we could, we could talk about. Uh, adolescence is just such a, a challenging period of time for so many families. So there's a lot that we could touch on. I'd love to come back on and continue the conversation. But yeah, if, if families are struggling, CMC offers adolescence counseling. Adolescent services, I'm spearheading that work. So I'm more than happy to, you know, act as another set of support for you or for your adolescent or for both.

Brenda: 59:19

Awesome. Love it. And we'll put, if you, if you're trying to figure out, if you're driving and you can't figure all this out right now in the show notes will be links to CMC and all the work that they're doing. So thank you so much.

Jarrell: 59:33

Thank you for having me.

Brenda: 59:35

Okay, my friend, that is a wrap for today. Don't forget to download the new ebook, Worried Sick. It's totally free and it will shed so much light on positive tools and strategies you can use right now. To start creating those positive conditions for change in your home and in your relationships. It is at hopestreamcommunity. org forward slash worried. And guess what? We have moved the entire podcast to our website at hopestreamcommunity. org. So now when you want the show notes or resources or if you want to download a transcript Just go to hope stream community org and click on podcast and you will find it all there You can search by keyword episode number guest name and we have created playlists for you Makes it much easier to find episodes grouped by topic So we're really excited to have that done and hope you like the podcast new home Please be extraordinarily good to yourself today. Take a deep breath You've got this and you are going to be okay. You're not doing it alone. I will meet you right back here next week